[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

[ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]

considering the added expenses that blind people incur what is wrong with 
the extra tax exemption? I for one will gladly continue to accept it without 
shame or guilt.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> Ray:
>
> I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to do 
> with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your language 
> in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think accomplishes more 
> than some previous messages.  People get caught up in this and that and 
> don't hear the message.
>
> I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price for 
> things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to high, but 
> with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there yet.
>
> No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale replacement 
> is slim.
>
> Dave
>
> At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
>>All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal 
>>fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best way 
>>for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a crime in 
>>the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can get. 
>>Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual 
>>fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something 
>>better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI and 
>>social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to work.  I 
>>said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries to go 
>>to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much money to 
>>get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with all due 
>>respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that 
>>those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even be honest with 
>>ourselves and each other about the fact that our current set up may not be 
>>the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS that too hard to do?  Is 
>>that too much to ask?  I said what I said in this message and there's no 
>>taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too late.  If we can't even be 
>>honest with ourselves about this, what have we come too?
>>Sincerely,
>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>
>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>
>>E-Mail:
>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>Skype:
>>barefootedray
>>
>>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>
>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of
>> sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this
>> notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
>> believe we need to think about the cost of what we
>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to
>> society.  These seem like reasonable questions that should
>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even
>> what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a
>> sense of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types
>> are no longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
>> having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize
>> reality.  To extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>> > just a theory.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Steve Jacobson
>> >
>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>> >
>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in discussing
>> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view.
>> Far too many
>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons 
>> >> to
>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for
>> disaster.  That's
>> >> how mistakes are made.
>> >
>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking
>> of calling
>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of 
>> >> speech.
>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not
>> just because
>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so
>> important is that it
>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>> other in a
>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins. 
>> >> Its
>> >> called the market place of ideas.
>> >
>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of
>> ideas to their
>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
>> people to do.
>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start
>> casting about
>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that
>> is a recipe
>> >> for wrongness.
>> >
>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>> believe, you
>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better 
>> >> chess
>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all of 
>> >> my
>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a
>> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my 
>> >> opponent's
>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not
>> see? Is he
>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was
>> like magic.
>> >
>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance 
>> >> of
>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there
>> is how few
>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess 
>> >> players.
>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>> >
>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>> opinions, take
>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or not. 
>> >> Do
>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
>> beliefs? Do I
>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the
>> facts?  If more
>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
>> would be a
>> >> better place.
>> >
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi all,
>> >
>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative 
>> >> and
>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used 
>> >> to
>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>> >
>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger 
>> >> and
>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and 
>> >> others
>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>> disintegrate
>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political
>> leanings.  Knock off
>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each
>> other names and
>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it is 
>> >> to
>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind 
>> >> Americans
>> >> should have.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Mike Hingson
>> >
>> >
>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
>> >> Michael Hingson, President
>> >> (415) 827-4084
>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
>> >
>> >
>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> >> On
>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>> >
>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sincerely,
>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>> >
>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>> >
>> >> E-Mail:
>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> >> Skype:
>> >> barefootedray
>> >
>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>> >
>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally
>> you refrain
>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The
>> correct term is
>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" 
>> >>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> RyanO,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand 
>> >>>> for
>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps 
>> >> some
>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
>> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But
>> why?  It's the
>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor 
>> >> blind
>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for
>> many of us,
>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us 
>> >> don't
>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When we 
>> >> do,
>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we 
>> >> make
>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system. 
>> >> What,
>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
>> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>> government will
>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
>> >> really means, you'll see that i
>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It 
>> >>>> personally
>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my 
>> >> fellow
>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
>> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the
>> blind.  That turns my
>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the
>> federation fail to
>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being in 
>> >> bed
>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely 
>> >> hoping
>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking 
>> >> book
>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to
>> ride the back
>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however, 
>> >> that
>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here,
>> I personally
>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the 
>> >> fact
>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to have 
>> >> to
>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for 
>> >> that
>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being 
>> >> looked
>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be
>> enough.  What I
>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
>> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>> entitlement
>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sincerely,
>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> E-Mail:
>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> >>>> Skype:
>> >>>> barefootedray
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Dave
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach 
>> >>>>> out
>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative
>> to come speak
>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>> issues. We
>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of 
>> >> phone
>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because, 
>> >> "Obama
>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and
>> hurt. We tried
>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we
>> didn't matter.
>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second
>> option was to
>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It 
>> >>>>> is
>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome 
>> >> on
>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the spirit 
>> >> of
>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion
>> fosters a more
>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan 
>> >>>>> to
>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please 
>> >> Email
>> >> me at
>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> RyanO
>
>
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