[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

[ckrugman at sbcglobal.net]

These programs don't reinforce the entitlement mentality. These programs 
will generally reinforce the idea that government and society do not need to 
implement and enforce laws that require barriers be removed to employment 
and insure that necessary supportive services will be provided to blind 
people entering the work force. My concern is based on the impressions that 
exist on the part of employers regarding the limitations of blind people in 
employment. While these programs are needed they are at times used as an 
excuse not to provide needed opportunities as it has become expedient not to 
put teeth in anti-discrimination laws. When there is a cost for 
noncompliance with laws such as ADA and comparable state laws we will see an 
improvement. An example would be the Target settlement as a cost of 
discrimination and not providing accessible resources. The only drawback to 
the Target settlement was that it was settled resulting in no official legal 
precedent being set.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> But your story contradicts Ray's point. He is claiming that SSI and SSDI 
> keep people off the employment roles. Your story directly contradicts his 
> claim that these programs lead to an entitlement mentality.   You're 
> saying you don't have an entitlement mentality, right?
>
> I really doubt that employers choose to not hire a blind person because 
> they figure the blind person can just get welfare anyway. Employers just 
> don't think like that.  As a rule, an employer doesn't care how much you 
> need the job. All they care about is how good of a job you're going to do 
> for them.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> Ray, you make a good point as there have been times over the years when I 
>> have been asked by people questions like "Why do I try to work when I can 
>> get SSI and other benefits?" With a college education and advanced 
>> degrees I found those questions rather insulting. Unfortunately, while 
>> programs like SSI are needed I have always felt that they have 
>> contributed to the 70% unemployment rate of the blind community because 
>> they give society an excuse not to provide adequate opportunities for 
>> blind people to secure gainful employment. A prevalent attitude seems to 
>> be that because these programs exist a hit or miss approach is used to 
>> provide full accommodations for employment of blind people.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal 
>>> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best 
>>> way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a crime 
>>> in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can get. 
>>> Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual 
>>> fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something 
>>> better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI 
>>> and social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to work. 
>>> I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries to 
>>> go to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much 
>>> money to get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with 
>>> all due respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not 
>>> saying that those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even 
>>> be honest with ourselves and each other about the fact that our current 
>>> set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS that too 
>>> hard to do? Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in this message 
>>> and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too late.  If 
>>> we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have we come 
>>> too?
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>
>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>
>>> E-Mail:
>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>> Skype:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense to 
>>>> me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>> Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is 
>>>> that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>> figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further believe 
>>>> we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>> might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society. 
>>>> These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>> not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even what 
>>>> Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>> overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense 
>>>> of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>>>> to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no 
>>>> longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>>>> large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as having 
>>>> a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>> other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality.  To 
>>>> extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>> just a theory.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in discussing
>>>>> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>>> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far too 
>>>>> many
>>>>> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons 
>>>>> to
>>>>> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for disaster. 
>>>>> That's
>>>>> how mistakes are made.
>>>>
>>>>> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of 
>>>>> calling
>>>>> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of 
>>>>> speech.
>>>>> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just 
>>>>> because
>>>>> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is 
>>>>> that it
>>>>> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each other 
>>>>> in a
>>>>> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins. 
>>>>> Its
>>>>> called the market place of ideas.
>>>>
>>>>> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas to 
>>>>> their
>>>>> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most people 
>>>>> to do.
>>>>> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting 
>>>>> about
>>>>> for information to support what they already believe.  And that is a 
>>>>> recipe
>>>>> for wrongness.
>>>>
>>>>> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you believe, 
>>>>> you
>>>>> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better 
>>>>> chess
>>>>> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all of 
>>>>> my
>>>>> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a
>>>>> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my 
>>>>> opponent's
>>>>> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see? 
>>>>> Is he
>>>>> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>>> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like 
>>>>> magic.
>>>>
>>>>> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance 
>>>>> of
>>>>> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is how 
>>>>> few
>>>>> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess 
>>>>> players.
>>>>> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>
>>>>> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>>> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political 
>>>>> opinions, take
>>>>> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or not. 
>>>>> Do
>>>>> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my beliefs? 
>>>>> Do I
>>>>> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts?  If 
>>>>> more
>>>>> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world would 
>>>>> be a
>>>>> better place.
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative 
>>>>> and
>>>>> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used 
>>>>> to
>>>>> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>
>>>>> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger 
>>>>> and
>>>>> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and 
>>>>> others
>>>>> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>>>>> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve 
>>>>> disintegrate
>>>>> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings. 
>>>>> Knock off
>>>>> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other 
>>>>> names and
>>>>> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it is 
>>>>> to
>>>>> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind 
>>>>> Americans
>>>>> should have.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mike Hingson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>>> Michael Hingson, President
>>>>> (415) 827-4084
>>>>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>
>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you 
>>>>>> refrain
>>>>> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct 
>>>>> term is
>>>>> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" 
>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RyanO,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps 
>>>>> some
>>>>> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
>>>>> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why? 
>>>>> It's the
>>>>> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor 
>>>>> blind
>>>>> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for many 
>>>>> of us,
>>>>> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us 
>>>>> don't
>>>>> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When we 
>>>>> do,
>>>>> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we 
>>>>> make
>>>>> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system. 
>>>>> What,
>>>>> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
>>>>> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that government 
>>>>> will
>>>>> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
>>>>> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It 
>>>>>>> personally
>>>>> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my 
>>>>> fellow
>>>>> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
>>>>> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That 
>>>>> turns my
>>>>> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation 
>>>>> fail to
>>>>> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being in 
>>>>> bed
>>>>> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely 
>>>>> hoping
>>>>> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking 
>>>>> book
>>>>> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride the 
>>>>> back
>>>>> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however, 
>>>>> that
>>>>> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I 
>>>>> personally
>>>>> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>>> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the 
>>>>> fact
>>>>> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to have 
>>>>> to
>>>>> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for 
>>>>> that
>>>>> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being 
>>>>> looked
>>>>> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough. 
>>>>> What I
>>>>> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
>>>>> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the 
>>>>> entitlement
>>>>> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach 
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to come 
>>>>> speak
>>>>> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability 
>>>>> issues. We
>>>>> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>>>>> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of 
>>>>> phone
>>>>> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because, 
>>>>> "Obama
>>>>> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt. We 
>>>>>>>> tried
>>>>> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't 
>>>>> matter.
>>>>> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>>> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option 
>>>>> was to
>>>>> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
>>>>> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It 
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome 
>>>>> on
>>>>> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the spirit 
>>>>> of
>>>>> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters a 
>>>>> more
>>>>> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan 
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please 
>>>>> Email
>>>>> me at
>>>>>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RyanO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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