[nfb-talk] SSI or not

Fri Apr 23 17:44:30 UTC 2010

Is that the way really that it is played? Look how fast Obama rose through 
and even bypassed a lot of ranks to become president.  You have to have 2 
things: the ability to be a really good speaker, and message that a lot of 
people support.
So Mike, what's your message? *smile*
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] SSI or not

Hi,

I do have a clue.  However, that is how the game at present is played.

The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com

for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 8:47 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] SSI or not

mike,

do you even have a slight clue how long that would take even if you got
lucky and skipped a few rungs like local city mayor, school board, etc.?

Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aziza Cano" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
To: <info at michaelhingson.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] SSI or not

>I wish people would state their views of other people's ideas in a more
>friendly manner. We all have ideas of how to make the world better for the
>blind and sighted communities, and it doesn't matter if we're right or
>wrong, we're here to support each other, not be condecending.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:09 PM
> Subject: [nfb-talk] SSI or not
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am a bit lost here.  Isn't what Ray proposes what the NFB is doing?
> Many
> not on SSI as well as many more who are all are working together to work
> with congress to provide not only incentives to go off that program but
> also
> methods by which blind people can gain more of a foothold in the work
> force.
> For years this organization has been educating where it can.
>
> What we need is for individuals to work through their chapters to develop
> a
> louder and stronger voice.
>
> Here is a thought.  When are some of us going to run for and get elected
> to
> congress?  We all talk about what Congress should do, why don't we become
> part of the process to make it happen?
>
>
> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of John G. Heim
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 2:54 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
> What the heck are you talking about? I offered Ray a real way to start
> implementing his ideas. You could hardly be *less* dogmatic than that.
>
> Ray offers this completely unrealistic idea for doing away with SSI and I
> offer him a realistic way to make a difference, however small,  and *I* am
> the one accused of being dogmatic?  Its insane.
>
> ---- Original Message ----- 
> From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> John, you are not reading past Ray's conservative politics to the crux of
>> the problem -- you're both trying to solve the same problem I believe --
>> Ray
>> is just musing on how to do that from one approach, you from another. You
>> are being as dogmatic as you say Ray is, but of course it is good you are
>> employed and attempting a solution.
>> I grew up trying to beat the stereotypes and do as much as possible -- I
>> won't bore everyone more with that, but I wanted to add that it was nice
>> when I was in school to have the government programs available to help
>> the
>> process along.
>> I think Ray is just saying that the handouts should be temporary, right
>> Ray?
>> Now before I get in more hot water I'll leave you both to your sniping.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 10:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Why do you keep saying somebody should do this or somebody should do
>> that?
>> Why don't you just do it?
>>
>> I'll tell you what... I am the President of a non-profit called the
>> International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. See
>> http://www.iavit.org. We could use someone to maintain our web site.  If
>> you
>> can gather enough donations to IAVIT, we'll hire the person of your
>> choice
>> to maintain our web site. They'll have to be qualified, of course. But
>> you
>> can pick someone currently on SSI and we'll give them a job.
>>
>> PS: You really need to knock  off this hhonesty bullstuff.  People with
>> opinions that differ from yours aren't simply being dishonest. That's
>> insulting because it implies that you have some kind of monopoly on the
>> truth. You don't. In fact, you have nothing but your unsubstantiated
>> opinions. When I've asked you for substantiation, you have mrely repeated
>> your opinions as if that proves them.  So knock it off with the
>> intestinal
>> fortitude and honesty stuff. If you want me to believe you're right then
>> prove it.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>> Agreed, we are not there yet.  Perhaps what is needed is some individual
>>> or group of individuals composed of blind people who are no longer on
>>> SSI
>>> and who are federationists to seriously sit down and ask the question,
>>> just how can we help those on SSI and who do have legitimate need get
>>> off
>>> SSI and in to good jobs?  Maybe one individual could start a networking
>>> process that might lead eventually to some better solution.  Look,
>>> folks,
>>> if we say that the simplist solution is just to leave things as they
>>> are,
>>> how can we any longer say that we're inovaative about providing or
>>> trying
>>> to provide solutions to these very real world problems.  No, our
>>> solutions
>>> most likely won't be perfect, but, can we not even be honest with
>>> ourselves enough to admit that we do need some better way?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>
>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>
>>> e-mail:
>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>> skype:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:19 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ray:
>>>>
>>>> I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to
>>>> do
>>>> with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your
>>>> language
>>>> in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think accomplishes
>>>> more than some previous messages.  People get caught up in this and
>>>> that
>>>> and don't hear the message.
>>>>
>>>> I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price
>>>> for
>>>> things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to high,
>>>> but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there yet.
>>>>
>>>> No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale
>>>> replacement
>>>> is slim.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal
>>>>> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best
>>>>> way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a
>>>>> crime
>>>>> in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can
>>>>> get.
>>>>> Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual
>>>>> fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something
>>>>> better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI
>>>>> and social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to
>>>>> work.
>>>>> I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries
>>>>> to
>>>>> go to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much
>>>>> money to get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So,
>>>>> with
>>>>> all due respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not
>>>>> saying that those who need help should not get it; but, can we not
>>>>> even
>>>>> be honest with ourselves and each other about the fact that our
>>> current set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS
>>> that too hard to do?  Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in
>>> this
>>> message and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too
>>> late.  If we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have
>>> we
>>> come too?
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense
>>>>> > to
>>>>> > me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion
>>>>> > is
>>>>> > that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
>>>>> > believe
>>>>> > we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to
>>>>> > society.
>>>>> > These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even what
>>>>> > Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a
>>>>> > sense
>>>>> > of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>>>>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are
>>>>> > no
>>>>> > longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>>>>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
>>>>> > having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality.  To
>>>>> > extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>>> > just a theory.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Best regards,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Steve Jacobson
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
>>>>> >> discussing
>>>>> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>>> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far
>>>>> >> too many
>>>>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for
>>>>> >> reasons
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for
>>>>> >> disaster.
>>>>> >> That's
>>>>> >> how mistakes are made.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of
>>>>> >> calling
>>>>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of
>>>>> >> speech.
>>>>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just
>>>>> >> because
>>>>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important
>>>>> >> is
>>>>> >> that it
>>>>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>>>>> >> other in a
>>>>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.
>>>>> >> Its
>>>>> >> called the market place of ideas.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> their
>>>>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
>>>>> >> people
>>>>> >> to do.
>>>>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start
>>>>> >> casting
>>>>> >> about
>>>>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that is
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> recipe
>>>>> >> for wrongness.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>>>>> >> believe, you
>>>>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better
>>>>> >> chess
>>>>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all
>>>>> >> of my
>>>>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my
>>>>> >> opponent's
>>>>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not
>>>>> >> see?
>>>>> >> Is he
>>>>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>>> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was
>>>>> >> like
>>>>> >> magic.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the
>>>>> >> importance
>>>>> >> of
>>>>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is
>>>>> >> how few
>>>>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess
>>>>> >> players.
>>>>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>>>>> >> opinions, take
>>>>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or
>>>>> >> not.
>>>>> >> Do
>>>>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
>>>>> >> beliefs?
>>>>> >> Do I
>>>>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts?
>>>>> >> If
>>>>> >> more
>>>>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
>>>>> >> would
>>>>> >> be a
>>>>> >> better place.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Hi all,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as
>>>>> >> conservative
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been
>>>>> >> used
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into
>>>>> >> anger
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and
>>>>> >> others
>>>>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see
>>>>> >> our
>>>>> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>>>>> >> disintegrate
>>>>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings.
>>>>> >> Knock off
>>>>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other
>>>>> >> names and
>>>>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it
>>>>> >> is
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind
>>>>> >> Americans
>>>>> >> should have.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Mike Hingson
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>>> >> Michael Hingson, President
>>>>> >> (415) 827-4084
>>>>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Sincerely,
>>>>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> E-Mail:
>>>>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> >> Skype:
>>>>> >> barefootedray
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you
>>>>> >>> refrain
>>>>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct
>>>>> >> term is
>>>>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr"
>>>>> >>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> RyanO,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue
>>>>> >>>> stand
>>>>> >>>> for
>>>>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at
>>>>> >> perhaps
>>>>> >> some
>>>>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why?
>>>>> >> It's the
>>>>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor
>>>>> >> blind
>>>>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for
>>>>> >> many
>>>>> >> of us,
>>>>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of
>>>>> >> us
>>>>> >> don't
>>>>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When
>>>>> >> we do,
>>>>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand,
>>>>> >> we
>>>>> >> make
>>>>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.
>>>>> >> What,
>>>>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many
>>>>> >> blind
>>>>> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>>>>> >> government will
>>>>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It
>>>>> >>>> personally
>>>>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my
>>>>> >> fellow
>>>>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to
>>>>> >> hate
>>>>> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That
>>>>> >> turns my
>>>>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the
>>>>> >> federation
>>>>> >> fail to
>>>>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being
>>>>> >> in bed
>>>>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely
>>>>> >> hoping
>>>>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking
>>>>> >> book
>>>>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride
>>>>> >> the back
>>>>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
>>>>> >> however,
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I
>>>>> >> personally
>>>>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist,
>>>>> >>>> an
>>>>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> fact
>>>>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to
>>>>> >> have to
>>>>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being
>>>>> >> looked
>>>>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be
>>>>> >> enough.
>>>>> >> What I
>>>>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation,
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>>>>> >> entitlement
>>>>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> >>>> Skype:
>>>>> >>>> barefootedray
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Dave
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to
>>>>> >>>>> reach
>>>>> >>>>> out
>>>>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to
>>>>> >> come speak
>>>>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>>>>> >> issues. We
>>>>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of
>>>>> >> our
>>>>> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of
>>>>> >> phone
>>>>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because,
>>>>> >> "Obama
>>>>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt.
>>>>> >>>>> We
>>>>> >>>>> tried
>>>>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we
>>>>> >> didn't
>>>>> >> matter.
>>>>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second
>>>>> >> option
>>>>> >> was to
>>>>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>>>>> >> levels.
>>>>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires.
>>>>> >>>>> It
>>>>> >>>>> is
>>>>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is
>>>>> >> welcome
>>>>> >> on
>>>>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the
>>>>> >> spirit of
>>>>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion
>>>>> >> fosters
>>>>> >> a more
>>>>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I
>>>>> >>>>> plan
>>>>> >>>>> to
>>>>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information,
>>>>> >> please
>>>>> >> Email
>>>>> >> me at
>>>>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> RyanO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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