[nfb-talk] Enough already!

John G. Heim john at johnheim.net
Sun Dec 12 23:38:50 UTC 2010


Thank you very much, Gloria. Don't give it another thought.  If I've ever 
said anything to offend you, I apologize too and you can be assured I didn't 
mean it.

PS: I know what you're thinking... What do I mean "if"?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gloria Whipple" <fairyfoot at webband.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!


> John,
>
> I do owe you an apology for telling you that you were full of it.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Gloria Whipple
> Corresponding Secretary
> Inland Empire chapter
> nfb of WA
>
> cell number: 509-475-4993
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of John G. Heim
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:44 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>
> Gloria, I didn't say blind people can't do plumbing. I said they shouldn't
> be expected to. That's a huge difference. The reason it matters is because
> some people on this list were criticizing that couple on television for 
> not
> replacing their own toilet and bathroom sink. I said that criticism was
> unfair. That kind of repair would be beyond the majority of people in this
> country, blind or not.
>
> Now, I can understand that occasionally, miscommunication occurs. But by 
> now
>
> this should be clear. I am not saying blind people can't do their own
> plumbing. Of course blind people can do plumbing. I do much of the 
> plumbing
> around my own house. I even do some of the electrical repairs. I am well
> aware that blind people can do home repairs. I am not saying they can't 
> and
> would never say that. I'm just saying that if someone can't do their own
> plumbing, its  no reason to criticize them. Okay? Clear now?
>
> I would really appreciate it if people stopped saying that I said blind
> people can't maintain their own homes because I never said that and would
> never say that.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gloria Whipple" <fairyfoot at webband.com>
> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>
>
>>I know what you are getting at, but who was attacking! I just stated that
>> blind people can do anything that they want if they have the proper
>> training
>> and when they choose to do it. If that is attacking, so be it.
>>
>> Right you are not the moderator, David Andrews is.
>>
>> Gloria Whipple
>> Corresponding Secretary
>> Inland Empire chapter
>> nfb of WA
>>
>> cell number: 509-475-4993
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Wm. Ritchhart
>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 11:53 AM
>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>
>> Gloria,
>>
>> I'll start with stating that I am not the moderator.  I will follow up
>> with
>> your response is exactly the sort of response that David was talking 
>> about
>> when he told us to stop personal attacks.
>>
>> Do you not think that saying nothing would have been a more productive
>> course than your response below?  By your email signature I see you are a
>> chapter Secretary.  I believe that as a leader you should use some 
>> thought
>> in your replies and not hit the send key so quickly.
>>
>> Please read your post to yourself again and ask yourself if that is how
>> you
>> really want people to view you.  I suspect it is not.
>>
>> Thanks, William
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Gloria Whipple
>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:19 PM
>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>
>> You are full of it.
>>
>>
>> Gloria Whipple
>> Corresponding Secretary
>> Inland Empire chapter
>> nfb of WA
>>
>> cell number: 509-475-4993
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of John Heim
>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:06 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>
>> Joseph,  I never said that blind people can't be expected to maintain
>> their own homes. That is a complete distortion of my comments. I
>> suppose its hopeless to try to reason with you but what I said was
>> that blind people cannot be expected to replace their own toilets and
>> sinks. I doubt that most blind people do their own plumbing. I doubt
>> that even most sighted people do those kind of repairs themselves.
>>
>>
>> That seems like a perfectly reasonable point of view to me. I can't
>> see why you're so angry about it. And I have to figure that most of
>> the reasonable members of this list are as puzzled as I am.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2010, at 7:26 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>
>>> Ray,
>>>
>>> Probably I should've continued to do so, as originally was my
>>> intent, for that very reason.  Yet I suspect there will be no
>>> change, lest it come in the form of removing the "troublemaker" from
>>> the list.  I suspect we both know who that's going to mean.
>>>
>>> The tyranny of the offended minority, demanding the right to be not
>>> offended, while at the same time being profoundly offensive.
>>>
>>> Frankly, the thing that finally did it for me was the comment about
>>> how blind people cannot really be expected to manage their own basic
>>> home maintenance.  Yes, actually, they can!  We hold sighted people
>>> responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary living conditions,
>>> even if they cannot do the repairs themselves!
>>>
>>> Yet this entitled little whiner thinks a couple of people deserve a
>>> pass because they're blind?  And how dare we, the National
>>> Federation of the Blind, argue otherwise?  What greater offense can
>>> one give to the membership of an NFB listserv?
>>>
>>> He deserves to be flamed for such statements, and if our dear
>>> moderator would stop protecting him from the anger of those he has
>>> offended again and again, he surely would be.  Either he'd learn to
>>> cope, learn to stop going out of his way to anger pretty much the
>>> entire Federation, or he'd go away.  Any of the above is reasonable
>>> as far as I'm concerned.
>>>
>>> Y'know, I never really had a problem with Joe Harcz.  The man is
>>> willfully offensive to any federationist, and he knows it.  And he
>>> can sure dish it out.  But he can take it as well as he can dish it
>>> out.  I've gone a few rounds with him.  I've been forced to accept a
>>> couple of his points as valid, and he's been forced to accept a
>>> couple of mine.
>>>
>>> Now, I don't regret that he was removed from the NFB lists for the
>>> good of everyone, but truly I'd rather have him to deal with,
>>> because he's not going to go crying to the moderator every time
>>> someone hurts his feelings.  And to my knowledge, nobody was ever
>>> threatened with removal from the list for telling Joe Harcz where to
>>> stick it.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:56:07PM -0600, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>> Josh, I reckon if we could avoid naming names, we might make more
>>>> progress here.  This is not a thread which, I think, lends itself
>>>> to that.  I'm sure Joseph and I would have named names if we felt
>>>> it necessary.  That's why I have not and will not do so now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, My teacher in High School did show me different ways to fold my
>>>>> money, and that's what I do. You and I can discuss this in another
>>>>> thread. I have something to say on the topic of this thread as well.
>>>>> I've noticed how us conservatives on this thread are being
>>>>> attacked by
>>>>> the liberals here. Gloria, you, Ms. Judy, and others have been
>>>>> attacked because we disagreed with the little implanted chips
>>>>> given to
>>>>> visually impaired people. That's just one of those instances you
>>>>> were
>>>>> referring to. Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Well, Josh, my answer to you would not be the  Ibill; instead,
>>>>>> I'd advise
>>>>>> you to just save your money and fold it different ways.  Myself,
>>>>>> I'd love to
>>>>>> have the Ibill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back to the topic though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I felt a need to come on here and publically support Joseph
>>>>>> because, as
>>>>>> usual, I can't stand to see a friend stand alone on an issue;
>>>>>> especially
>>>>>> when I feel he or she is right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is one such case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly, although, I disagree with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> NFB's stance on accessible currency for the blind. The argument
>>>>>>> I get
>>>>>>> from most NFB members is, "well, get the I-Bill," but they don't
>>>>>>> understand is that it's too expensive for some of us, like
>>>>>>> myself who
>>>>>>> are going to college, and having to pay for that. $99 for a little
>>>>>>> gadget is too much. If they'll lower the price at the next
>>>>>>> convention
>>>>>>> that I'll be able to attend, (2012 in Dallas,) I'll buy the I-
>>>>>>> Bill.
>>>>>>> But until then, accessible currency is the way to go, (just my
>>>>>>> humble
>>>>>>> oppinion.) Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> David, I must agree with Joseph on this point.  I will speak
>>>>>>>> frankly
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>> Why do you tolerate vicious attacks on not only the NFB but on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>> of this list who hold with that way of thinking, not just
>>>>>>>> because some
>>>>>>>> federation leader says so, but because of their own personal
>>>>>>>> experience?
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> understand wanting to tolerate healthy and open and honest
>>>>>>>> discussion;
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> David, there are some individuals, (I'm not going to name names
>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>> believe you know who they are if you have been truly reading
>>>>>>>> the posts
>>>>>>>> here), who have violently attacked not only me but others who
>>>>>>>> think as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>> I have had enough; and, so, I dare say, have those who hold
>>>>>>>> with me.  I'm
>>>>>>>> not giving out the names of these attackers because I don't
>>>>>>>> feel the need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> sink this list in to that mire.  If a person honestly does not
>>>>>>>> know the
>>>>>>>> answer to the reason why an independent blind person says or
>>>>>>>> thinks or
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> something, of course, it goes without  saying that they should
>>>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>>>> than free to ask.  But Dave, I think we both know that this is
>>>>>>>> not what
>>>>>>>> Joseph and I are talking about here.  Honest ignorance is one
>>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>>> Attacks are another.  I will not claim to be totally guiltless
>>>>>>>> myself in
>>>>>>>> this regard, and so, indeed, I may not be.  However, this has
>>>>>>>> truly gone
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> quite long enough.  I'm writing this as an open response so
>>>>>>>> that everyone
>>>>>>>> may know just exactly how I feel.  Mind you, I can't speak for
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> directly, (only they can and must), but, I think I know some
>>>>>>>> others here
>>>>>>>> well enough to be able to make a fairly good guess at how they
>>>>>>>> feel.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> is supposed to be a list where ideas can be freely shared, and,
>>>>>>>> sans the
>>>>>>>> personal attacks, (which have become more and more of late), it
>>>>>>>> is.  But,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> too have noticed that those who defend the NFB positions on
>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>> matters
>>>>>>>> are threatened and the attackers defended.  Why is this?
>>>>>>>> Surely, you
>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>> know what I'm talking about?  I believe you do.  Tolerance is, in
>>>>>>>> general,
>>>>>>>> good, but, there comes a time when enough is enough.  It would
>>>>>>>> appear
>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>> (at least with respect to Joseph and myself), our patience has
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> reached
>>>>>>>> it's end.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 2:05 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have you noticed the trend of discussions on this list over
>>>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>>>> couple of years or so?  I have, and I've double-checked the
>>>>>>>>> archives to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> sure I wasn't reading something into it.  The pattern is that
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>> discussion seems to involve one group of people arguing for
>>>>>>>>> the ability
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the blind, for the NFB, its policies, and its mission.  The
>>>>>>>>> other side
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the discussion is generally one person.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The pattern of the discussion is that the individual says
>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> incendiary against one of the above, something I have a hard
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> accepting is unintentional at this point.  The group reacts,
>>>>>>>>> some with
>>>>>>>>> distaste, some with disagreement, and some with anger.  This
>>>>>>>>> last group
>>>>>>>>> has taken the bait, if you will.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is where you come in, because inevitably the individual
>>>>>>>>> insists
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> he is "offended" and "baselessly attacked" for his views.  You
>>>>>>>>> defend
>>>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>>>> going so far as to threaten to ban longtime regulars and well-
>>>>>>>>> respected
>>>>>>>>> federationists.  The individual takes this as a sign that he
>>>>>>>>> may stand
>>>>>>>>> behind you, and continue to insult not only us few here, but
>>>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>>>> this organization stands for.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The fact that there is not a single person on this list that
>>>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>> of whom I speak is evidence in and of itself.  It's really got
>>>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>>>>> Those who would not be flamed should not make a habit of
>>>>>>>>> setting fires.
>>>>>>>>> Having set a few myself over the years, it comes with the
>>>>>>>>> territory.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 10:19:24PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> This is a personal attack and is totally unacceptable.  You can
>>>>>>>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>>>> with someone -- but please stick to facts, not speculation etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> David Andrews, Moderator
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At 03:09 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree Gloria.  He is a very shallow person, and I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> care of his
>>>>>>>>>>> $250,000 house is paid off or not.  He could rip off Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>> Madoff,
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> biggest cheat in the world, and he wouldn't impress me..smile.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Connie Canode
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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