[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Fri Jul 16 20:25:19 UTC 2010


Ah, I can see there may be a basic miscommunication here. I think before we 
bother to continue, I need to ask you to explain what you meant by looking 
for a way to "gain ground not otherwise obtainable." What kind of ground?

I can honestly say that I have always tried to give constructive criticism 
of the NFB on this list. A lot of it wasn't taken that way, of course. I'm 
going to try to put this as politely as possible... I don't think too many 
people on this list have been willing to give due consideration to points of 
view contrary to NFB policy.  I mean, as yet, no one has said anything like, 
"Oh yeah, that was a mistake. We shouldn't have done that."  Of course, its 
possible thats because I've been wrong each time and the NFB hasn't made any 
mistakes.

I am grateful and humbled by your attempt to hold out an olive branch to me, 
Ray. I can honestly say that I never meant to irritate anybody. But I think 
there's little point in us trying to find common ground on the NFB 
philosophy if we can't even agree on what the problem with it is.





>>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?


> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think that 
> the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish blindness itself; rather, as I 
> understand it, the NFB is trying to make blindness itself a mere nucence 
> according to the perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike.  We tend 
> to see ourselves as others see us.  That includes the blind as well.  It's 
> a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to fight, and the need 
> for help from others seems to fly in the face of any forward movement in 
> that cause, there tends to be at least a little personal or professional 
> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need for 
> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly needed) would even appear to 
> set back the cause for which one is fighting.  I note the most recent 
> issue of "The Braille Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column 
> is particularly worth paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that column, 
> one of the letter writers indicate
> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB 
> always would brag about how they could always find their way through 
> airports and never needed help; and therefore, that one was not a true 
> federationist if one either needed or accepted help regardless of how much 
> that help was actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer, indicated 
> that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were reading the same 
> issues of "The Braille Monitor".  Here, I think the letter writer could 
> have made a stronger case by actually sighting issue and articles.  If the 
> truth of the matter be known, I too was once under the same impression as 
> the letter writer.
>
> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this list, 
> I made an attempt to explore this issue in depth but it didn't go very 
> far.  I sighted what I believed at the time to be inconsistencies in what 
> some leaders in the federation were saying and human reality.  It's human 
> to laugh at things which are truly funny; even things blindness related. 
> Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for example) said 
> things which I took to be the attitude that it was not acceptable for a 
> blind person to laugh at anything blindness related; even if it was 
> genuinely funny.  But this philosophy, if you live and breathe it 
> literally, tends to deny human reality.  What say y'all?
>
> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go with.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>
> E-Mail:
> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> Skype Name:
> barefootedray
>
> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured to 
>> me.
>>
>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB philosophy 
>> should be modified. The trouble is that I've always believed that an 
>> advocacy group cannot be effective when its own philosophy is that the 
>> problem it is organized around is fairly minor. Why bother working for 
>> change when blindness is a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>
>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." And I 
>> think it should be clear that I know that especially after my 
>> dissertation about how similar  the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's. The 
>> problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the 
>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim.  It inevitably 
>> will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, any 
>> accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get rid of the philosophy 
>> all together.
>>
>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really 
>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to 
>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But it 
>> sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>
>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would 
>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an 
>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training, 
>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the 
>> NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how those 2 
>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do 
>> not think they can work together. And you've got to admit that on the 
>> surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What some of 
>>> us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually not 
>>> attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help the NFB 
>>> fulfill and perhaps even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to 
>>> understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon you; but, 
>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going.  Because, 
>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather forward thinking 
>>> discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that if we advance 
>>> it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the right way, we might 
>>> perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>> E-Mail:
>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>> Skype Name:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good 
>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>
>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB philosophy 
>>>> but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very close to my 
>>>> personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who would 
>>>> do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. His 
>>>> players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor him. What 
>>>> he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you meet a 
>>>> challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That is what it 
>>>> is to be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best you 
>>>> can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never obtain it but on 
>>>> the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do more than you 
>>>> ever thought you could. Second, you'll find the struggle itself can be 
>>>> fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it will be the greatest feeling 
>>>> you've ever had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be the 
>>>> best damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to 
>>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and 
>>>> swimming.
>>>>
>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into 
>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard."  Instead 
>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You don't 
>>>> seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>
>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the 
>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily morphed 
>>>> into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't live 
>>>> Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really since 
>>>> perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better. But not 
>>>> everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no one 
>>>> has any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>
>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's 
>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, that 
>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it gives 
>>>> you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never settling 
>>>> for anything short of success is implied in the NFB philosophy but not 
>>>> spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would have 
>>>> been that the most important thing in life for a blind person is 
>>>> striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You may never get 
>>>> there but the most important thing is to never be satisfied until it 
>>>> is.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson" 
>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best I 
>>>>> would at
>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a 
>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>
>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the 
>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the swimmers 
>>>>> keep
>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on 
>>>>> the way
>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is to 
>>>>> swim
>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider on 
>>>>> every
>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>
>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve. 
>>>>> After
>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If so,
>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully. Here
>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they 
>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means 
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter a
>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I just
>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I just
>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish it 
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is still
>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer nerd 
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I guess
>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought 
>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the NLS
>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it on
>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes after
>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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