[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
Dewey Bradley
dewey.bradley at att.net
Sat Jul 17 18:31:30 UTC 2010
this is funny because we have all done something like that, even sighted
people do stuff like that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
> Ray,
>
> I don't think this fits the pattern that you and Mike were discussing. In
> this case, nobody is making fun of you, you made
> a mistake and you needed to handle it in the way you felt made the most
> sense. I would submit that by laughing about it
> a little, you probably helped yourself, and you probably gained an
> opportunity to let the attendant know why it happened
> and that you really do have a system to tell them apart. I would feel
> less positive, though, if someone who didn't know
> that this doesn't usually happen made a comedy skit out of this without
> any explanation such as what you likely could
> have provided.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:20:09 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>
>>Mike,
>
>>You might be pleasantly surprised to find that you and I agree on this
>>matter more than you might at first suppose. The
> issues you bring up are points that are well taken. IN fact, I'll add to
> your points by giving yet another example.
> Remember "Good and Evil"? I do. did I think that show was funny? Hell
> no!!! I thought it was exactly the worst thing
> to come along in years. IN fact, I'd say it was way worse even than the
> commercial you sighted in your message. Still,
> while your points are well taken, I maintian that I still have a fairly
> good case. For example, let's say I am in a hurry to get
> to the laundry mat and in my haste, I grab a box of Pancake mix rather
> than detergent. Yes, that actually happened to
> me. I put the powder in to the machine and put my clothes in. The
> attendant came over and then said to me, "Uh,
> excuse me sir; uh, do you know you put Pancake mix in your clothes?". You
> can imagine how embarrassed I was.
> Now, let's look at that episode. ON the one hand, one hand, one could
> argue the point that this incident would make
> the attendant think that blind people cannot tell between laundry
> detergent and pancake mix. He might, therefore, have
> a view of blindness that is colored by that happening. Therefore, by
> allowing that bit of carelessness to occurr, one
> could say that i betrayed the cause and set us bakc many years. At this
> point, some might perhaps call me a trator to
> the movement because of this. In my first days in the outfit, I too might
> have said as much. On the other hand, one
> could argue that the story is funny for its own sake. The laundry mat
> attendant could easily have his view of blindness
> corrected by others, (many others) who would not make that mistake. So,
> let me stop here and ask one simple question.
> What says the list to that?
>
>
>>Sincerely,
>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>
>>E-Mail:
>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>Skype Name:
>>barefootedray
>
>>On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>
>>> Ray:
>>>
>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize
>>> because almost universally, there are
> exceptions to any rule. But with respect to humor regarding aspects of
> blindness, I think we must ask ourselves *why*
> we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular blindness-related
> incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>
>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical company
>>> touting the need to wear good glasses
> (this was before lasic) by using a skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping
> trip with her stole her glasses and laughed
> themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how ridiculous she
> looked stumbling about and doing awkward
> things because she couldn't see.
>>>
>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the
>>> kids to laugh about something the mom
> couldn't help because she wasn't trained as a blind person and had I been
> her, I'd have tanned their hides. This sort of
> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing. It's
> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr.
> Magoo) it gives the impression that all vision-impaired persons are like
> that, it sets us back immeasurably.
>>>
>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it
>>> out of the cupboard and absent-mindedly
> pouring coffee all over the counter as a result -- that's just plain funny
> because I knew better and had my head in the
> clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should have.
>>>
>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because it's
>>> funny or because we are laughing at what
> we take to be our misfortune.
>>>
>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others (including
>>> ourselves) assume that we need help when
> we may not and (b) that we may falsely assume that we can't do something
> so elect not to try. Every one of us (including
> those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it and/or when it's
> convenient for us and others. Where this gets
> us into trouble is when we ask for help so often that people don't think
> we can do without it.
>>>
>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by
>>> our view of blindness.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing. As I see it, I don't think
>>>> that the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish
> blindness itself; rather, as I understand it, the NFB is trying to make
> blindness itself a mere nucence according to the
> perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike. We tend to see ourselves
> as others see us. That includes the blind as
> well. It's a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to fight,
> and the need for help from others seems to fly in
> the face of any forward movement in that cause, there tends to be at least
> a little personal or professional
> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need for
> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly
> needed) would even appear to set back the cause for which one is fighting.
> I note the most recent issue of "The Braille
> Monitor" for July 2010. The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column is particularly worth
> paying attention to. Why? Because in that
> column, one of the letter writers indicate
>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB
>>>> always would brag about how they could
> always find their way through airports and never needed help; and
> therefore, that one was not a true federationist if one
> either needed or accepted help regardless of how much that help was
> actually needed. Barbara Pierce, in her answer,
> indicated that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were reading
> the same issues of "The Braille Monitor".
> Here, I think the letter writer could have made a stronger case by
> actually sighting issue and articles. If the truth of the
> matter be known, I too was once under the same impression as the letter
> writer.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I'll give you another. The subject of laughter. Once, on this
>>>> list, I made an attempt to explore this issue in
> depth but it didn't go very far. I sighted what I believed at the time to
> be inconsistencies in what some leaders in the
> federation were saying and human reality. It's human to laugh at things
> which are truly funny; even things blindness
> related. Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for
> example) said things which I took to be the attitude
> that it was not acceptable for a blind person to laugh at anything
> blindness related; even if it was genuinely funny. But
> this philosophy, if you live and breathe it literally, tends to deny human
> reality. What say y'all?
>>>>
>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured
>>>>> to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB
>>>>> philosophy should be modified. The trouble is that I've
> always believed that an advocacy group cannot be effective when its own
> philosophy is that the problem it is organized
> around is fairly minor. Why bother working for change when blindness is a
> mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means."
>>>>> And I think it should be clear that I know
> that especially after my dissertation about how similar the NFB
> philosophy is to Lombardi's. The problem, as I see it, is
> that it is impossible to avoid having the philosophy to morph into
> something that blames the victim. It inevitably will lead
> to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, any
> accomodation. The only solution I see is to get rid of the
> philosophy all together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the
> philosophy be tweaked to address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm
> very skeptical. But it sure is worth some
> thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the
> NFB be effective as an advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with
> proper training, blindness can be reduced
> to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the NFB (scary thought, I
> know), I could go on for days about how those 2
> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do
> not think they can work together. And you've got to
> admit that on the surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay John, So, let me see if I understand you correctly. What some
>>>>>> of us have viewed as your attacks on the
> NFB philosophy are actually not attacks at all; rather, they are attempts
> on your part to help the NFB fulfill and perhaps
> even improve on its philosophy? I want you to understand that I do not
> intend my question as an attack upon you; but,
> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going. Because, if
> so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather
> forward thinking discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that
> if we advance it to the leadership of the
> NFB in exactly the right way, we might perhaps gain ground not otherwise
> obtainable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB
> philosophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
>>>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the
> truth. Its very close to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed
> from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who
>>>>>>> would do anything to win. No, that was not
> what he was like at all. His players loved him and still gather to meet
> each year to honor him. What he believed was that
> life's greatest moments come when you meet a challenge and over come it.
> That's what life is about. That is what it is to
> be human. You've got to have the will to win, to be the best you can be.
> Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never
> obtain it but on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do
> more than you ever thought you could. Second,
> you'll find the struggle itself can be fun. And third, , when you do
> succeed, it will be the greatest feeling you've ever had.
> So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be the best damn blind guy
> I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to
> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and swimming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life
> is so hard." Instead the response is , "Well, what are you going to do
> about it?" You don't seek out adversity but when
> it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is
> that it is easily morphed into a mentality of showing contempt for losers.
> You can't live Lombardi's philosophy and be
> satisfied -- well ever really since perfection is impossible to obtain.
> You can always get better. But not everybody has the
> same strengths and not everyone can win. And no one has any right to tell
> anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I
> would say, though, that Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the
> NFB in that it gives you a sort of method for
> carrying it out. The idea of never settling for anything short of success
> is implied in the NFB philosophy but not spelled
> out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would have been that
> the most important thing in life for a blind
> person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance. You may never
> get there but the most important thing is to
> never be satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming. I think the best I
>>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles! Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>> like to hear about it. I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on
>>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is
>>>>>>>> to swim
>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider
>>>>>>>> on every
>>>>>>>> stroke. That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone? Why? Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh? Do you ever have to share a lane? If
>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they
>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player. I do wish it
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter. With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is
>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service. You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I
>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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