[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

[Dewey Bradley]

good point
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?


> Since we're talking about philosophy, what do we mean when we say 
> something like, "Even sighted people do..." or "So-and-so can't do this, 
> and s/he can see."?
>
> This is something I've been thinking about for a long time now. Certainly 
> not obsessively, but it's crossed my mind several times over the past 
> several years, and it kind of bugs me.
>
> When we say things like, "so-and-so can't do thus-and-such, and he can 
> see", or "Even sighted people do this or that thing", are we not, even if 
> subconsciously, saying that our expectations for blind people are lower 
> than they are for sighted people? Or, put another way, are we not saying 
> that we expect sighted people to do something better, for the sole fact of 
> their sightedness, and really, it's OK if we can't, because they can't 
> either?
>
> Because of this bit of possible hair splitting, I am very careful these 
> days about how I say things. Some may call it hair splitting, nit picking, 
> or what have you, but if there's anything that we should have learned from 
> such notables as Dr. Jernigan, it is that words mean things, and the words 
> we use are very powerful things, and they can and do shape our 
> perceptions.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Jul 17, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Dewey Bradley wrote:
>
>> this is funny because we have all done something like that, even sighted 
>> people do stuff like that.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>> Ray,
>>>
>>> I don't think this fits the pattern that you and Mike were discussing. 
>>> In this case, nobody is making fun of you, you made
>>> a mistake and you needed to handle it in the way you felt made the most 
>>> sense.  I would submit that by laughing about it
>>> a little, you probably helped yourself, and you probably gained an 
>>> opportunity to let the attendant know why it happened
>>> and that you really do have a system to tell them apart.  I would feel 
>>> less positive, though, if someone who didn't know
>>> that this doesn't usually happen made a comedy skit out of this without 
>>> any explanation such as what you likely could
>>> have provided.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:20:09 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>> You might be pleasantly surprised to find that you and I agree on this 
>>>> matter more than you might at first suppose.  The
>>> issues you bring up are points that are well taken.  IN fact, I'll add 
>>> to your points by giving yet another example.
>>> Remember "Good and Evil"?  I do.  did I think that show was funny?  Hell 
>>> no!!!  I thought it was exactly the worst thing
>>> to come along in years.  IN fact, I'd say it was way worse even than the 
>>> commercial you sighted in your message.  Still,
>>> while your points are well taken, I maintian that I still have a fairly 
>>> good case.  For example, let's say I am in a hurry to get
>>> to the laundry mat and in my haste, I grab a box of Pancake mix rather 
>>> than detergent.  Yes, that actually happened to
>>> me.  I put the powder in to the machine and put my clothes in.  The 
>>> attendant came over and then said to me, "Uh,
>>> excuse me sir; uh, do you know you put Pancake mix in your clothes?". 
>>> You can imagine how embarrassed I was.
>>> Now, let's look at that episode.  ON the one hand, one hand, one could 
>>> argue the point that this incident would make
>>> the attendant think that blind people cannot tell between laundry 
>>> detergent and pancake mix.  He might, therefore, have
>>> a view of blindness that is colored by that happening.  Therefore, by 
>>> allowing that bit of carelessness to occurr, one
>>> could say that i betrayed the cause and set us bakc many years.  At this 
>>> point, some might perhaps call me a trator to
>>> the movement because of this.  In my first days in the outfit, I too 
>>> might have said as much.  On the other hand, one
>>> could argue that the story is funny for its own sake.  The laundry mat 
>>> attendant could easily have his view of blindness
>>> corrected by others, (many others) who would not make that mistake.  So, 
>>> let me stop here and ask one simple question.
>>> What says the list to that?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Ray:
>>>>>
>>>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize 
>>>>> because almost universally, there are
>>> exceptions to any rule. But with respect to humor regarding aspects of 
>>> blindness, I think we must ask ourselves *why*
>>> we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular blindness-related 
>>> incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical 
>>>>> company touting the need to wear good glasses
>>> (this was before lasic) by using a skit whereby a mom's kids on a 
>>> camping trip with her stole her glasses and laughed
>>> themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how ridiculous she 
>>> looked stumbling about and doing awkward
>>> things because she couldn't see.
>>>>>
>>>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for 
>>>>> the kids to laugh about something the mom
>>> couldn't help because she wasn't trained as a blind person and had I 
>>> been her, I'd have tanned their hides. This sort of
>>> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing. It's 
>>> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr.
>>> Magoo) it gives the impression that all vision-impaired persons are like 
>>> that, it sets us back immeasurably.
>>>>>
>>>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting 
>>>>> it out of the cupboard and absent-mindedly
>>> pouring coffee all over the counter as a result -- that's just plain 
>>> funny because I knew better and had my head in the
>>> clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should 
>>> have.
>>>>>
>>>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because 
>>>>> it's funny or because we are laughing at what
>>> we take to be our misfortune.
>>>>>
>>>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others 
>>>>> (including ourselves) assume that we need help when
>>> we may not and (b) that we may falsely assume that we can't do something 
>>> so elect not to try. Every one of us (including
>>> those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it and/or when it's 
>>> convenient for us and others. Where this gets
>>> us into trouble is when we ask for help so often that people don't think 
>>> we can do without it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by 
>>>>> our view of blindness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think 
>>>>>> that the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish
>>> blindness itself; rather, as I understand it, the NFB is trying to make 
>>> blindness itself a mere nucence according to the
>>> perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike.  We tend to see 
>>> ourselves as others see us.  That includes the blind as
>>> well.  It's a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to 
>>> fight, and the need for help from others seems to fly in
>>> the face of any forward movement in that cause, there tends to be at 
>>> least a little personal or professional
>>> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need for 
>>> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly
>>> needed) would even appear to set back the cause for which one is 
>>> fighting. I note the most recent issue of "The Braille
>>> Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column is particularly 
>>> worth paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that
>>> column, one of the letter writers indicate
>>>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB 
>>>>>> always would brag about how they could
>>> always find their way through airports and never needed help; and 
>>> therefore, that one was not a true federationist if one
>>> either needed or accepted help regardless of how much that help was 
>>> actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer,
>>> indicated that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were 
>>> reading the same issues of "The Braille Monitor".
>>> Here, I think the letter writer could have made a stronger case by 
>>> actually sighting issue and articles.  If the truth of the
>>> matter be known, I too was once under the same impression as the letter 
>>> writer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this 
>>>>>> list, I made an attempt to explore this issue in
>>> depth but it didn't go very far.  I sighted what I believed at the time 
>>> to be inconsistencies in what some leaders in the
>>> federation were saying and human reality.  It's human to laugh at things 
>>> which are truly funny; even things blindness
>>> related. Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for 
>>> example) said things which I took to be the attitude
>>> that it was not acceptable for a blind person to laugh at anything 
>>> blindness related; even if it was genuinely funny.  But
>>> this philosophy, if you live and breathe it literally, tends to deny 
>>> human reality.  What say y'all?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go 
>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never 
>>>>>>> occured to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB 
>>>>>>> philosophy should be modified. The trouble is that I've
>>> always believed that an advocacy group cannot be effective when its own 
>>> philosophy is that the problem it is organized
>>> around is fairly minor. Why bother working for change when blindness is 
>>> a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." 
>>>>>>> And I think it should be clear that I know
>>> that especially after my dissertation about how similar  the NFB 
>>> philosophy is to Lombardi's. The problem, as I see it, is
>>> that it is impossible to avoid having the philosophy to morph into 
>>> something that blames the victim.  It inevitably will lead
>>> to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, any 
>>> accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get rid of the
>>> philosophy all together.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really 
>>>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the
>>> philosophy be tweaked to address the problems I have seen? I'll admit 
>>> I'm very skeptical. But it sure is worth some
>>> thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would 
>>>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the
>>> NFB be effective as an advocacy group when its own philosophy is that 
>>> with proper training, blindness can be reduced
>>> to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the NFB (scary thought, I 
>>> know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do 
>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to
>>> admit that on the surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What 
>>>>>>>> some of us have viewed as your attacks on the
>>> NFB philosophy are actually not attacks at all; rather, they are 
>>> attempts on your part to help the NFB fulfill and perhaps
>>> even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to understand that I do not 
>>> intend my question as an attack upon you; but,
>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going.  Because, 
>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather
>>> forward thinking discussion about a substantive way of moving forward 
>>> that if we advance it to the leadership of the
>>> NFB in exactly the right way, we might perhaps gain ground not otherwise 
>>> obtainable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good 
>>>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB
>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB 
>>>>>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the
>>> truth. Its very close to my personal philosophy of life which is 
>>> borrowed from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who 
>>>>>>>>> would do anything to win. No, that was not
>>> what he was like at all. His players loved him and still gather to meet 
>>> each year to honor him. What he believed was that
>>> life's greatest moments come when you meet a challenge and over come it. 
>>> That's what life is about. That is what it is to
>>> be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best you can 
>>> be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never
>>> obtain it but on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll 
>>> do more than you ever thought you could. Second,
>>> you'll find the struggle itself can be fun. And third, , when you do 
>>> succeed, it will be the greatest feeling you've ever had.
>>> So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be the best damn blind 
>>> guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to
>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and 
>>> swimming.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into 
>>>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life
>>> is so hard."  Instead the response is , "Well, what are you going to do 
>>> about it?" You don't seek out adversity but when
>>> it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the 
>>>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is
>>> that it is easily morphed into a mentality of showing contempt for 
>>> losers. You can't live Lombardi's philosophy and be
>>> satisfied -- well ever really since perfection is impossible to obtain. 
>>> You can always get better. But not everybody has the
>>> same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no one has any right to 
>>> tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's 
>>>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I
>>> would say, though, that Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of 
>>> the NFB in that it gives you a sort of method for
>>> carrying it out. The idea of never settling for anything short of 
>>> success is implied in the NFB philosophy but not spelled
>>> out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would have been that 
>>> the most important thing in life for a blind
>>> person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You may 
>>> never get there but the most important thing is to
>>> never be satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson" 
>>>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best 
>>>>>>>>>> I would at
>>>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a 
>>>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of 
>>>>>>>>>> the lane, I'd
>>>>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the 
>>>>>>>>>> swimmers keep
>>>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and 
>>>>>>>>>> on the way
>>>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do 
>>>>>>>>>> is to swim
>>>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane 
>>>>>>>>>> divider on every
>>>>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to 
>>>>>>>>>> improve. After
>>>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills 
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If 
>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> they set
>>>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> minor
>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only 
>>>>>>>>>>>> means one
>>>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> enter a
>>>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nerd like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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