[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Jim jp100 at earthlink.net
Sun Jul 18 11:55:09 CDT 2010


Pay attention and don't put salt in your coffee this morning, Mike.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:20 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Delicioso!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim" <jp100 at earthlink.net>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?


> Yeah.  Come on.  Who hasn't put orange juice instead of milk in their
> cereal?  Everyone has done it, and we just learn to live with and laugh
> about it.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Dewey Bradley
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:32 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
> this is funny because we have all done something like that, even sighted
> people do stuff like that.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>> Ray,
>>
>> I don't think this fits the pattern that you and Mike were discussing. 
>> In
>
>> this case, nobody is making fun of you, you made
>> a mistake and you needed to handle it in the way you felt made the most
>> sense.  I would submit that by laughing about it
>> a little, you probably helped yourself, and you probably gained an
>> opportunity to let the attendant know why it happened
>> and that you really do have a system to tell them apart.  I would feel
>> less positive, though, if someone who didn't know
>> that this doesn't usually happen made a comedy skit out of this without
>> any explanation such as what you likely could
>> have provided.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:20:09 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>
>>>Mike,
>>
>>>You might be pleasantly surprised to find that you and I agree on this
>>>matter more than you might at first suppose.  The
>> issues you bring up are points that are well taken.  IN fact, I'll add to
>> your points by giving yet another example.
>> Remember "Good and Evil"?  I do.  did I think that show was funny?  Hell
>> no!!!  I thought it was exactly the worst thing
>> to come along in years.  IN fact, I'd say it was way worse even than the
>> commercial you sighted in your message.  Still,
>> while your points are well taken, I maintian that I still have a fairly
>> good case.  For example, let's say I am in a hurry to get
>> to the laundry mat and in my haste, I grab a box of Pancake mix rather
>> than detergent.  Yes, that actually happened to
>> me.  I put the powder in to the machine and put my clothes in.  The
>> attendant came over and then said to me, "Uh,
>> excuse me sir; uh, do you know you put Pancake mix in your clothes?". 
>> You
>
>> can imagine how embarrassed I was.
>> Now, let's look at that episode.  ON the one hand, one hand, one could
>> argue the point that this incident would make
>> the attendant think that blind people cannot tell between laundry
>> detergent and pancake mix.  He might, therefore, have
>> a view of blindness that is colored by that happening.  Therefore, by
>> allowing that bit of carelessness to occurr, one
>> could say that i betrayed the cause and set us bakc many years.  At this
>> point, some might perhaps call me a trator to
>> the movement because of this.  In my first days in the outfit, I too 
>> might
>
>> have said as much.  On the other hand, one
>> could argue that the story is funny for its own sake.  The laundry mat
>> attendant could easily have his view of blindness
>> corrected by others, (many others) who would not make that mistake.  So,
>> let me stop here and ask one simple question.
>> What says the list to that?
>>
>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>
>>>E-Mail:
>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>Skype Name:
>>>barefootedray
>>
>>>On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>
>>>> Ray:
>>>>
>>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize
>>>> because almost universally, there are
>> exceptions to any rule. But with respect to humor regarding aspects of
>> blindness, I think we must ask ourselves *why*
>> we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular blindness-related
>> incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>>
>>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical 
>>>> company
>
>>>> touting the need to wear good glasses
>> (this was before lasic) by using a skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping
>> trip with her stole her glasses and laughed
>> themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how ridiculous she
>> looked stumbling about and doing awkward
>> things because she couldn't see.
>>>>
>>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the
>>>> kids to laugh about something the mom
>> couldn't help because she wasn't trained as a blind person and had I been
>> her, I'd have tanned their hides. This sort of
>> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing. It's
>> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr.
>> Magoo) it gives the impression that all vision-impaired persons are like
>> that, it sets us back immeasurably.
>>>>
>>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it
>>>> out of the cupboard and absent-mindedly
>> pouring coffee all over the counter as a result -- that's just plain 
>> funny
>
>> because I knew better and had my head in the
>> clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should have.
>>>>
>>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because 
>>>> it's
>
>>>> funny or because we are laughing at what
>> we take to be our misfortune.
>>>>
>>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others 
>>>> (including
>
>>>> ourselves) assume that we need help when
>> we may not and (b) that we may falsely assume that we can't do something
>> so elect not to try. Every one of us (including
>> those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it and/or when it's
>> convenient for us and others. Where this gets
>> us into trouble is when we ask for help so often that people don't think
>> we can do without it.
>>>>
>>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by
>>>> our view of blindness.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think
>>>>> that the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish
>> blindness itself; rather, as I understand it, the NFB is trying to make
>> blindness itself a mere nucence according to the
>> perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike.  We tend to see 
>> ourselves
>
>> as others see us.  That includes the blind as
>> well.  It's a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to fight,
>> and the need for help from others seems to fly in
>> the face of any forward movement in that cause, there tends to be at 
>> least
>
>> a little personal or professional
>> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need for
>> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly
>> needed) would even appear to set back the cause for which one is 
>> fighting.
>
>> I note the most recent issue of "The Braille
>> Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column is particularly 
>> worth
>
>> paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that
>> column, one of the letter writers indicate
>>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB
>>>>> always would brag about how they could
>> always find their way through airports and never needed help; and
>> therefore, that one was not a true federationist if one
>> either needed or accepted help regardless of how much that help was
>> actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer,
>> indicated that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were 
>> reading
>
>> the same issues of "The Braille Monitor".
>> Here, I think the letter writer could have made a stronger case by
>> actually sighting issue and articles.  If the truth of the
>> matter be known, I too was once under the same impression as the letter
>> writer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this
>>>>> list, I made an attempt to explore this issue in
>> depth but it didn't go very far.  I sighted what I believed at the time 
>> to
>
>> be inconsistencies in what some leaders in the
>> federation were saying and human reality.  It's human to laugh at things
>> which are truly funny; even things blindness
>> related. Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for
>> example) said things which I took to be the attitude
>> that it was not acceptable for a blind person to laugh at anything
>> blindness related; even if it was genuinely funny.  But
>> this philosophy, if you live and breathe it literally, tends to deny 
>> human
>
>> reality.  What say y'all?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go
>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured
>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB
>>>>>> philosophy should be modified. The trouble is that I've
>> always believed that an advocacy group cannot be effective when its own
>> philosophy is that the problem it is organized
>> around is fairly minor. Why bother working for change when blindness is a
>> mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means."
>>>>>> And I think it should be clear that I know
>> that especially after my dissertation about how similar  the NFB
>> philosophy is to Lombardi's. The problem, as I see it, is
>> that it is impossible to avoid having the philosophy to morph into
>> something that blames the victim.  It inevitably will lead
>> to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, any
>> accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get rid of the
>> philosophy all together.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the
>> philosophy be tweaked to address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm
>> very skeptical. But it sure is worth some
>> thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the
>> NFB be effective as an advocacy group when its own philosophy is that 
>> with
>
>> proper training, blindness can be reduced
>> to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the NFB (scary thought, I
>> know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do
>> not think they can work together. And you've got to
>> admit that on the surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What some
>>>>>>> of us have viewed as your attacks on the
>> NFB philosophy are actually not attacks at all; rather, they are attempts
>> on your part to help the NFB fulfill and perhaps
>> even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to understand that I do not
>> intend my question as an attack upon you; but,
>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going.  Because, if
>> so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather
>> forward thinking discussion about a substantive way of moving forward 
>> that
>
>> if we advance it to the leadership of the
>> NFB in exactly the right way, we might perhaps gain ground not otherwise
>> obtainable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB
>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
>>>>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the
>> truth. Its very close to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed
>> from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who
>>>>>>>> would do anything to win. No, that was not
>> what he was like at all. His players loved him and still gather to meet
>> each year to honor him. What he believed was that
>> life's greatest moments come when you meet a challenge and over come it.
>> That's what life is about. That is what it is to
>> be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best you can be.
>> Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never
>> obtain it but on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll 
>> do
>
>> more than you ever thought you could. Second,
>> you'll find the struggle itself can be fun. And third, , when you do
>> succeed, it will be the greatest feeling you've ever had.
>> So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be the best damn blind guy
>> I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to
>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and swimming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life
>> is so hard."  Instead the response is , "Well, what are you going to do
>> about it?" You don't seek out adversity but when
>> it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is
>> that it is easily morphed into a mentality of showing contempt for 
>> losers.
>
>> You can't live Lombardi's philosophy and be
>> satisfied -- well ever really since perfection is impossible to obtain.
>> You can always get better. But not everybody has the
>> same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no one has any right to 
>> tell
>
>> anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I
>> would say, though, that Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of 
>> the
>
>> NFB in that it gives you a sort of method for
>> carrying it out. The idea of never settling for anything short of success
>> is implied in the NFB philosophy but not spelled
>> out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would have been that
>> the most important thing in life for a blind
>> person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You may never
>> get there but the most important thing is to
>> never be satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best I
>>>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and 
>>>>>>>>> on
>
>>>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do 
>>>>>>>>> is
>
>>>>>>>>> to swim
>>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane 
>>>>>>>>> divider
>
>>>>>>>>> on every
>>>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If
>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
>>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and 
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>
>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only 
>>>>>>>>>>> means
>
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to 
>>>>>>>>>>> enter
>
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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>>
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