[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Tue Jul 20 03:41:00 UTC 2010

Oh I have my opinions but I dare say they won't carry any weight with those 
who do not accept my assumptions about reality as a blind person.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim" <jp100 at earthlink.net>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

> Mike, I love these questions!
> Got anything there??
>
> Chuck, you're right, but I wonder if we couldn't have fun trying to tackle
> them anyway.
> JP
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
> and those are questions that I can't answer because we are dealing with
> factors that take on a subjective or relative quality since we are dealing
> with the human factor which is a variable in itself.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>> Right. And your musings below then lead to a number of further questions:
>> (1) what level of competence should members of society routinely assume
>> blind people have (I suspect we would receive different answers from
>> different organizations of the blind)? (2) When and to what extent should
>> society in general and NFB in particular encourage individual blind 
>> people
>
>> to strive for increased competence beyond that which they already possess
>> and when should we attempt to compensate these same individuals for any
>> supposed lack of competence? (3) How do we distinguish between 
>> flexibility
>
>> of training and/or expectations and knuckling under to our
>> all-too-often-experience of having reduced expectations of ourselves and
>> others by virtue of our/their blindness?
>>
>> No one ever said tackling any philosophy of living at the margins would 
>> be
>
>> easy.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>>I think the point here is that we are living in the real world and not a
>>>utopian world where all blind people will receive the proper training or
>>>adapt to all levels of the so-called proper training. The question now
>>>becomes whether "proper training" is the same for all blind people. and
>>>what happens for whatever reason if the ability to attain the necessary
>>>skills that define completion of proper training are not achieved for
>>>whatever reason by all reasons. This proposed issue regarding proper
>>>training is similar to the problems that exist as a result of reliance on
>>>too much standardized testing for achievement for students in our schools
>>>or reliance on such mandatory standards such as high school exit exams 
>>>for
>
>>>all students. The reality now becomes that since we are in the real world
>>>which is not perfect there will degrees of attainment of the competence
>>>referred to with the so-called proper training and the degree to which
>>>blindness becomes merely a nuisance is related to the degree to which a
>>>blind person accomplishes the so-called "proper training." As a result of
>>>this we are now back to the current position that we deal with in the 
>>>real
>
>>>world that the degree that blindness is merely a nuisance is an 
>>>individual
>
>>>factor determined by many variables which I don't need to go in to here 
>>>as
>
>>>it doesn't take much imagination to consider what these variables are.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 8:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured 
>>>> to
>
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB philosophy
>>>> should be modified. The trouble is that I've always believed that an
>>>> advocacy group cannot be effective when its own philosophy is that the
>>>> problem it is organized around is fairly minor. Why bother working for
>>>> change when blindness is a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>
>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." And
>>>> I think it should be clear that I know that especially after my
>>>> dissertation about how similar  the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's. 
>>>> The
>
>>>> problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the
>>>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim.  It
>>>> inevitably will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an
>>>> accomodation, any accomodation. The only solution I see is to get rid 
>>>> of
>
>>>> the philosophy all together.
>>>>
>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to
>>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But it
>>>> sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an
>>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training,
>>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of 
>>>> the
>
>>>> NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just 
>>>> do
>
>>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to admit that on the
>>>> surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What some 
>>>>> of
>
>>>>> us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually not
>>>>> attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help the NFB
>>>>> fulfill and perhaps even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to
>>>>> understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon you; 
>>>>> but,
>
>>>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going.  Because,
>>>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather forward thinking
>>>>> discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that if we 
>>>>> advance
>
>>>>> it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the right way, we might
>>>>> perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
>>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very 
>>>>>> close
>
>>>>>> to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince
>>>>>> Lombardi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who would
>>>>>> do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. His
>>>>>> players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor him.
>>>>>> What he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you meet 
>>>>>> a
>
>>>>>> challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That is what 
>>>>>> it
>
>>>>>> is to be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best
>>>>>> you can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never obtain it but
>>>>>> on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do more 
>>>>>> than
>
>>>>>> you ever thought you could. Second, you'll find the struggle itself
>>>>>> can be fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it will be the greatest
>>>>>> feeling you've ever had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going
>>>>>> to be the best damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to
>>>>>> learn to play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running
>>>>>> and swimming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard."  Instead
>>>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You 
>>>>>> don't
>
>>>>>> seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily morphed
>>>>>> into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't live
>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really since
>>>>>> perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better. But 
>>>>>> not
>
>>>>>> everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no 
>>>>>> one
>
>>>>>> has any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, that
>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it
>>>>>> gives you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never
>>>>>> settling for anything short of success is implied in the NFB
>>>>>> philosophy but not spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB
>>>>>> philosophy would have been that the most important thing in life for 
>>>>>> a
>
>>>>>> blind person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You
>>>>>> may never get there but the most important thing is to never be
>>>>>> satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best I
>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on
>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is
>>>>>>> to swim
>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider
>>>>>>> on every
>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If 
>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they
>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter 
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish it
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is 
>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I guess
>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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