[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Margo and Arrow margo.downey at verizon.net
Tue Jul 20 15:20:15 UTC 2010


There's kind of a double standard.  if a sighted person does something, the 
reaction is on a different level than if a blind person does something.

Margo andArrow
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?


> Actually, I've known plenty of sighted persons who put on one shoe 
> differing in color from the other.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>> >From a standpoint of healthy development we need to be able to laugh at
>> ourselves and for those of us who are blind that would include blindness 
>> issues. Over the years there have been a couple of days when I went out 
>> wearing one black shoe and one brown shoe as the pairs of shoes were 
>> iedentical. I don't think this had a major impact on the world view of 
>> blindness. On one of these occasions it was mid-afternoon before my 
>> secretary noticed it. Perhaps we can convey a healthier attitude toward 
>> blindness  by lightening up a little bit. Having been born blind I 
>> decided that I could stop going out of my way to prove my capabilities 
>> many years ago.
>> chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 5:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> You might be pleasantly surprised to find that you and I agree on this 
>>> matter more than you might at first suppose.  The issues you bring up 
>>> are points that are well taken.  IN fact, I'll add to your points by 
>>> giving yet another example.  Remember "Good and Evil"?  I do.  did I 
>>> think that show was funny?  Hell no!!!  I thought it was exactly the 
>>> worst thing to come along in years.  IN fact, I'd say it was way worse 
>>> even than the commercial you sighted in your message.  Still, while your 
>>> points are well taken, I maintian that I still have a fairly good case. 
>>> For example, let's say I am in a hurry to get to the laundry mat and in 
>>> my haste, I grab a box of Pancake mix rather than detergent.  Yes, that 
>>> actually happened to me.  I put the powder in to the machine and put my 
>>> clothes in. The attendant came over and then said to me, "Uh, excuse me 
>>> sir; uh, do you know you put Pancake mix in your clothes?".  You can 
>>> imagine how embarrassed I was.  Now, let's look at that episode.  ON the 
>>> one hand, one hand, one could argue the point that this incident would 
>>> make the attendant think that blind people cannot tell between laundry 
>>> detergent and pancake mix.  He might, therefore, have a view of 
>>> blindness that is colored by that happening.  Therefore, by allowing 
>>> that bit of carelessness to occurr, one could say that i betrayed the 
>>> cause and set us bakc many years.  At this point, some might perhaps 
>>> call me a trator to the movement because of this.  In my first days in 
>>> the outfit, I too might have said as much.  On the other hand, one could 
>>> argue that the story is funny for its own sake.  The laundry mat 
>>> attendant could easily have his view of blindness corrected by others, 
>>> (many others) who would not make that mistake.  So, let me stop here and 
>>> ask one simple question. What says the list to that?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>> E-Mail:
>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>> Skype Name:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ray:
>>>>
>>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize 
>>>> because almost universally, there are exceptions to any rule. But with 
>>>> respect to humor regarding aspects of blindness, I think we must ask 
>>>> ourselves *why* we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular 
>>>> blindness-related incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>>
>>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical 
>>>> company touting the need to wear good glasses (this was before lasic) 
>>>> by using a skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping trip with her stole 
>>>> her glasses and laughed themselves silly when she got up in the morning 
>>>> over how ridiculous she looked stumbling about and doing awkward things 
>>>> because she couldn't see.
>>>>
>>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the 
>>>> kids to laugh about something the mom couldn't help because she wasn't 
>>>> trained as a blind person and had I been her, I'd have tanned their 
>>>> hides. This sort of thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick 
>>>> comedy unappealing. It's basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as 
>>>> in Mr. Magoo) it gives the impression that all vision-impaired persons 
>>>> are like that, it sets us back immeasurably.
>>>>
>>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it 
>>>> out of the cupboard and absent-mindedly pouring coffee all over the 
>>>> counter as a result -- that's just plain funny because I knew better 
>>>> and had my head in the clouds rather than paying attention to what I 
>>>> was doing as I should have.
>>>>
>>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because 
>>>> it's funny or because we are laughing at what we take to be our 
>>>> misfortune.
>>>>
>>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others 
>>>> (including ourselves) assume that we need help when we may not and (b) 
>>>> that we may falsely assume that we can't do something so elect not to 
>>>> try. Every one of us (including those of us who are sighted) use help 
>>>> when we need it and/or when it's convenient for us and others. Where 
>>>> this gets us into trouble is when we ask for help so often that people 
>>>> don't think we can do without it.
>>>>
>>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by 
>>>> our view of blindness.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think 
>>>>> that the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish blindness itself; 
>>>>> rather, as I understand it, the NFB is trying to make blindness itself 
>>>>> a mere nucence according to the perceptions of both the sighted and 
>>>>> blind alike.  We tend to see ourselves as others see us.  That 
>>>>> includes the blind as well.  It's a fact of human nature that when 
>>>>> you've got a cause to fight, and the need for help from others seems 
>>>>> to fly in the face of any forward movement in that cause, there tends 
>>>>> to be at least a little personal or professional embarrassment at the 
>>>>> idea of needing help; especially when that need for help and the 
>>>>> taking of it, (how ever badly needed) would even appear to set back 
>>>>> the cause for which one is fighting.  I note the most recent issue of 
>>>>> "The Braille Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column is 
>>>>> particularly worth paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that column, 
>>>>> one of the letter writers indicate
>>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB 
>>>>> always would brag about how they could always find their way through 
>>>>> airports and never needed help; and therefore, that one was not a true 
>>>>> federationist if one either needed or accepted help regardless of how 
>>>>> much that help was actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer, 
>>>>> indicated that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were 
>>>>> reading the same issues of "The Braille Monitor".  Here, I think the 
>>>>> letter writer could have made a stronger case by actually sighting 
>>>>> issue and articles.  If the truth of the matter be known, I too was 
>>>>> once under the same impression as the letter writer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this 
>>>>> list, I made an attempt to explore this issue in depth but it didn't 
>>>>> go very far.  I sighted what I believed at the time to be 
>>>>> inconsistencies in what some leaders in the federation were saying and 
>>>>> human reality. It's human to laugh at things which are truly funny; 
>>>>> even things blindness related. Some among the federation leadership, 
>>>>> (barbara Pierce for example) said things which I took to be the 
>>>>> attitude that it was not acceptable for a blind person to laugh at 
>>>>> anything blindness related; even if it was genuinely funny.  But this 
>>>>> philosophy, if you live and breathe it literally, tends to deny human 
>>>>> reality.  What say y'all?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go 
>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured 
>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB 
>>>>>> philosophy should be modified. The trouble is that I've always 
>>>>>> believed that an advocacy group cannot be effective when its own 
>>>>>> philosophy is that the problem it is organized around is fairly 
>>>>>> minor. Why bother working for change when blindness is a mere 
>>>>>> nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." 
>>>>>> And I think it should be clear that I know that especially after my 
>>>>>> dissertation about how similar  the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's. 
>>>>>> The problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having 
>>>>>> the philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim.  It 
>>>>>> inevitably will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an 
>>>>>> accomodation, any accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get 
>>>>>> rid of the philosophy all together.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really 
>>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to 
>>>>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But 
>>>>>> it sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would 
>>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an 
>>>>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training, 
>>>>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of 
>>>>>> the NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how 
>>>>>> those 2 ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical 
>>>>>> matter, I just do not think they can work together. And you've got to 
>>>>>> admit that on the surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What some 
>>>>>>> of us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually 
>>>>>>> not attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help 
>>>>>>> the NFB fulfill and perhaps even improve on its  philosophy?  I want 
>>>>>>> you to understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon 
>>>>>>> you; but, instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are 
>>>>>>> going. Because, if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a 
>>>>>>> rather forward thinking discussion about a substantive way of moving 
>>>>>>> forward that if we advance it to the leadership of the NFB in 
>>>>>>> exactly the right way, we might perhaps gain ground not otherwise 
>>>>>>> obtainable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good 
>>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB 
>>>>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very 
>>>>>>>> close to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from 
>>>>>>>> Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who 
>>>>>>>> would do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. 
>>>>>>>> His players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor 
>>>>>>>> him. What he believed was that life's greatest moments come when 
>>>>>>>> you meet a challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. 
>>>>>>>> That is what it is to be human.  You've got to have the will to 
>>>>>>>> win, to be the best you can be. Strive for perfection, knowing 
>>>>>>>> you'll never obtain it but on the way there, you'll find three 
>>>>>>>> things. First, you'll do more than you ever thought you could. 
>>>>>>>> Second, you'll find the struggle itself can be fun. And third, , 
>>>>>>>> when you do succeed, it will be the greatest feeling you've ever 
>>>>>>>> had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be the best 
>>>>>>>> damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to 
>>>>>>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and 
>>>>>>>> swimming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into 
>>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard." 
>>>>>>>> Instead the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about 
>>>>>>>> it?" You don't seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. 
>>>>>>>> Take it on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the 
>>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily 
>>>>>>>> morphed into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't 
>>>>>>>> live Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really 
>>>>>>>> since perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get 
>>>>>>>> better. But not everybody has the same strengths and not everyone 
>>>>>>>> can win. And no one has any right to tell anyone else how to live 
>>>>>>>> their lives.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's 
>>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, 
>>>>>>>> that Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that 
>>>>>>>> it gives you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of 
>>>>>>>> never settling for anything short of success is implied in the NFB 
>>>>>>>> philosophy but not spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB 
>>>>>>>> philosophy would have been that the most important thing in life 
>>>>>>>> for a blind person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere 
>>>>>>>> nuisance. You may never get there but the most important thing is 
>>>>>>>> to never be satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson" 
>>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best I 
>>>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a 
>>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the 
>>>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the swimmers 
>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and 
>>>>>>>>> on the way
>>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do 
>>>>>>>>> is to swim
>>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane 
>>>>>>>>> divider on every
>>>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve. 
>>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If 
>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and 
>>>>>>>>>>> they set
>>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only 
>>>>>>>>>>> means one
>>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to 
>>>>>>>>>>> enter a
>>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I 
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I 
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer nerd 
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought 
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it on
>>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes 
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>
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>>>>
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