[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

Wed May 26 20:27:36 UTC 2010

No he does not need it.
He can cross anywhere, because he and I walk around the city.
But you will never get it, so I'm going to stop takeing the time to get it 
through your thick head.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals


> Dewey, would you please take a step back and think about what you are 
> saying.  Your friend needs that audible signal.  It is so valuable to him 
> that he's willing to walk 10 blocks out of his way to use it. Who are you 
> to tell him he can't have it?
>
> Its possible your navigational skills are exemplary.  So maybe not 
> everyone can be a  Dewey Bradley.  But you shouldn't have to be perfect to 
> be represented by the NFB. The NFB has an obligation to represent those 
> who do not have perfect mobility skills. In fact, the obligation of the 
> NFB to those people is *greater* than it is to those who do have perfect 
> mobility skills.
>
> There is a ton of evidence out there on how audible walk signals make 
> blind pedestrians safer. I have posted a couple of links to this 
> information already. You claim that for you, they don't work. Well, I 
> can't account for that. It seems strange to me but I have no desire to 
> debate it because its not relevant. The fact remains that studies have 
> shown that audible walk signals help blind people deal with difficult or 
> dangerous crossings.  Some of the studies sited in the Access Board web 
> site go back to the early 1980s.
>
> To me, this is a struggle for the soul of the NFB. Is the NFB going to 
> represent everyone or do you have to be another Dewey Bradley for the NFB 
> to represent your needs?  It was the same thing with accessible money. 
> When I admitted that I occasionally find it necessary to stuff bills into 
> my pocket I was told I just need better training. But the truth is that I 
> am about as high functioning as it gets in the blind community. I am 
> probably in the 99th percentile in terms of my functionality as a blind 
> person. If you doubt that, I'm willing to provide documentation in 
> whatever form you like via private email. Its just  that I'm willing to 
> admit I'm not perfect. And I feel the NFB has a responsibility to 
> represent all blind people, even those who aren't perfect.
>
> This is about whether facts and reason are going to rule the policies of 
> the NFB or if personal whims are. Is NFB policy to be determined by the 
> research into audible walk signals or by the unsubstantiated opinions of 
> those who don't like them?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
> signals
>
>
>> good point
>> We have a talking crosswalk here on a college crosswalk.
>> The blind person that I talked about in my post works for them, he knows 
>> how to cross the street, but he will walk 10 blocks out of his way just 
>> to use his talking crosswalk.
>> I hate that stupid thing.
>> The street is busy enough so it always has traffic.
>> but when you hit the button, it will keep saying "whait, whait" Then when 
>> it is time to cross, it will say in a really loud voice "walk light is on 
>> to cross National"
>> It will say it a few times, so if someone runns the light, you wont be 
>> able to hear it.
>> And its busy enough that when its time to go, you can hear the traffic 
>> stop anyway.
>> I've seen the lights that will just make a tone when the walk light comes 
>> on, then will stop.
>> now they are all right
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E]" <Terry.Powers at nih.gov>
>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>>> If we are not tought correct mobility skills then what does a blind 
>>> person do when the power goes out.  You have to rely on your sences 
>>> because when the power goes out then the signals will malfunction.  I am 
>>> not saying they can not be helpful on some busy streets, but a blind 
>>> person should not soley depend on the signal.  If a signal is used, it 
>>> should be used in conjunction with your sences and your sences make the 
>>> correct choice as to when to cross.  If you do not listen, you could 
>>> walk right into the path of a turning car, just because the signal told 
>>> you, to cross.
>>>
>>> Terry Powers
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dewey Bradley [mailto:dewey.bradley at att.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 8:45 PM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because 
>>> when the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I want 
>>> to be able to hear them.
>>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able 
>>> to tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes 
>>> from.
>>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door, 
>>> cross the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, 
>>> and much more.
>>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do 
>>> anything.
>>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the 
>>> bank by him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that 
>>> blind people are stupid and helpless.
>>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training 
>>> centers.
>>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore 
>>> about the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how 
>>> to cross the street
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>>
>>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk 
>>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That 
>>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of 
>>> dollars installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you 
>>> don't believe that visible walk signals help sighted people cross 
>>> streets more safely, you should contact the traffic engineers in your 
>>> city and they will set you straight. Just as visible signals help 
>>> sighted people cross streets more safely, audible signals help blind 
>>> pedestrians cross streets more safely.
>>>
>>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping 
>>> blind people cross streets more safely:
>>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>>
>>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help blind 
>>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It 
>>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would not 
>>> make blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are 
>>> obligated to provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing 
>>> protests against something that by all appearances would make blind 
>>> pedestrians safer unless they have some compelling reason to believe it 
>>> doesn't work.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind 
>>> pedestrians.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>>> Do you need them?
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>>> signals:
>>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>>
>>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB 
>>> needs
>>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization 
>>> can
>>> be.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association 
>>> of
>>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>>>
>>>
>>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for the
>>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to 
>>> be a
>>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the 
>>> various
>>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O & 
>>> M
>>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how 
>>> the
>>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really 
>>> believe
>>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our roadways,
>>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it is
>>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>>
>>> Sherri
>>>
>>>
>>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and Newsline(r) Coordinator
>>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>>
>>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only 
>>> for
>>> now!"
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>>
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>
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