[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Thu May 27 23:29:57 UTC 2010 

But in general, audible walk signals help blind people deal with things like 
curbs that don't line up and misleading curb cuts. I suppose there are the 
rare occasions where they cause problems but audible walk signals would 
solve way more problems like this than they cause.   In the rare occasion 
where an audible signal is in a place where it would mislead a blind 
pedestrian, the right thing to do would be to fix that particular signal 
rather than doing away with them all together. In fact, in the case where a 
audible signal is too ar from the curb, it would tend to cause the blind 
pedestrian to veer away from traffic. As annoying as that might be, its less 
of a safety hazard than veering off into traffic which might happen without 
the audible signal.

I've tried to avoid voicing my personal experiences on audible signals 
prefering to refer to studies.  But there is an audible signal near my 
office that is about 15 feet from the curb. When I've had trouble locating 
the opposite curb it was when I was not listening to the audible signal. 
I've caught myself veering too far to the left or to the right and was able 
to get back on track because of the audible signal even though its located 
farther from the curb than it should be.

PS: I'd really like to express my thanks to you Dewey for bringing this 
disscussion back to audible signals.  Can we all get back to discussing 
audible walk signals please?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals


> good point.
> most of our crossings are like that as well.
> We don't even have side walks on most of our major streets
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
> signals
>
>
>> The other problem with talking crosswalks and audible signals is that a 
>> blind person using good mobility skills needs to deviate from the course 
>> to locate and use the audible signal as in many localities the control 
>> box is several feet away from and at an unusual angle to the designated 
>> cross walk creating more confusion and delays. The placement of many 
>> control boxes is also confusing as when placed at angles it can be 
>> confusing as to which control is for what direction. Even where traffic 
>> signals and push buttons for sighted pedestrians are located I generally 
>> don't use them because when using a cane after approaching the 
>> intersection my direction is already set to cross and locating the signal 
>> control requires a change in direction. Locally, we have a problem where 
>> our city chose to install one curb cut at a corner where if the blind 
>> pedestrian relied on the curb cut for direction this would result in 
>> crossing an intersection at a 45dg angle would be right out in to 
>> oncoming traffic.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>>> good point
>>> We have a talking crosswalk here on a college crosswalk.
>>> The blind person that I talked about in my post works for them, he knows 
>>> how to cross the street, but he will walk 10 blocks out of his way just 
>>> to use his talking crosswalk.
>>> I hate that stupid thing.
>>> The street is busy enough so it always has traffic.
>>> but when you hit the button, it will keep saying "whait, whait" Then 
>>> when it is time to cross, it will say in a really loud voice "walk light 
>>> is on to cross National"
>>> It will say it a few times, so if someone runns the light, you wont be 
>>> able to hear it.
>>> And its busy enough that when its time to go, you can hear the traffic 
>>> stop anyway.
>>> I've seen the lights that will just make a tone when the walk light 
>>> comes on, then will stop.
>>> now they are all right
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E]" <Terry.Powers at nih.gov>
>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:02 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>>> If we are not tought correct mobility skills then what does a blind 
>>>> person do when the power goes out.  You have to rely on your sences 
>>>> because when the power goes out then the signals will malfunction.  I 
>>>> am not saying they can not be helpful on some busy streets, but a blind 
>>>> person should not soley depend on the signal.  If a signal is used, it 
>>>> should be used in conjunction with your sences and your sences make the 
>>>> correct choice as to when to cross.  If you do not listen, you could 
>>>> walk right into the path of a turning car, just because the signal told 
>>>> you, to cross.
>>>>
>>>> Terry Powers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Dewey Bradley [mailto:dewey.bradley at att.net]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 8:45 PM
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because 
>>>> when the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the 
>>>> traffic.
>>>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I 
>>>> want to be able to hear them.
>>>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able 
>>>> to tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>>>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes 
>>>> from.
>>>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door, 
>>>> cross the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, 
>>>> and much more.
>>>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>>>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do 
>>>> anything.
>>>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the 
>>>> bank by him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that 
>>>> blind people are stupid and helpless.
>>>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training 
>>>> centers.
>>>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore 
>>>> about the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>>>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how 
>>>> to cross the street
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>>>
>>>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk 
>>>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That 
>>>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of 
>>>> dollars installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you 
>>>> don't believe that visible walk signals help sighted people cross 
>>>> streets more safely, you should contact the traffic engineers in your 
>>>> city and they will set you straight. Just as visible signals help 
>>>> sighted people cross streets more safely, audible signals help blind 
>>>> pedestrians cross streets more safely.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping 
>>>> blind people cross streets more safely:
>>>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>>>
>>>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help 
>>>> blind pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it. 
>>>> It certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would 
>>>> not make blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are 
>>>> obligated to provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing 
>>>> protests against something that by all appearances would make blind 
>>>> pedestrians safer unless they have some compelling reason to believe it 
>>>> doesn't work.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind 
>>>> pedestrians.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>>>> Do you need them?
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>>>> signals:
>>>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB 
>>>> needs
>>>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization 
>>>> can
>>>> be.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association 
>>>> of
>>>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>>>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>>>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for 
>>>> the
>>>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to 
>>>> be a
>>>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the 
>>>> various
>>>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>>>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O 
>>>> & M
>>>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>>>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>>>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>>>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how 
>>>> the
>>>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>>>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>>>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really 
>>>> believe
>>>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our 
>>>> roadways,
>>>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>>>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it 
>>>> is
>>>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>>>
>>>> Sherri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and Newsline(r) Coordinator
>>>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>>>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>>>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>>>
>>>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only 
>>>> for
>>>> now!"
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