[nfb-talk] Fw: Implantedchip 'allowsblindpeopleto detectobjects'

John Heim john at johnheim.net
Fri Nov 5 15:50:04 UTC 2010


What do you mean its not as simple as I've made it out to be? The only thing 
I'm saying is that wanting my vision back doesn't mean I feel inferiour. 
Well, yeah, that is a pretty simple comment but the issue itself is simple. 
Or do you think that if I want my vision back I must not have fully adjusted 
to being blind? I say that's ridiculous.

Steve, don't go over board trying to be fair. Sometimes you've got to call a 
spade a spade. What's right is right.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "qubit" 
<lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implantedchip 'allowsblindpeopleto 
detectobjects'


>I would submit that at least I don't know enough about this device to know 
>whether I would want it or not.  I don't think, Ray, it is as simple as you 
>make it
> out to be, nor is it as simple to me as John makes it out to me.  If I 
> could have vision at very low cost and at very low risk, I would take it. 
> If, however,
> having this device would require that I take antirejection treatments for 
> the rest of my life or if the cost is such that it would be like buying a 
> second home, I
> wouldn't find that worth the risk.  I would certainly be curious to see 
> what vision is like, but I don't see having vision as such a benefit to be 
> worth a cost that
> would leave me strapped or at the risk of my health.  If one were to be 
> willing to take an implant that provided vision at the risk of leaving 
> one's kids without
> a parent, for example, I would wonder about that persons priorities and 
> whether their blindness was unnecessarily limiting them.  I think, though, 
> that we
> have to recognize that there will be some honest differences between 
> individuals that can't be attributed solely to one's adjustment.  Also, we 
> would have to
> consider what getting vision back really means.  Those who think that they 
> could get vision back and immediately get a higher paying job may be
> disappointed.  The experience of some indicates that it takes time to 
> learn how to adequately use vision when one gets it back, and one would 
> most likely
> not be able to immediately drive, for example.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:41:45 -0500, qubit wrote:
>
>>Ray, I'm afraid I agree with John on this one.  The reason why I would 
>>want
>>more vision has nothing to do with the way I look to other people; it 
>>would
>>be done solely for my personal enjoyment and awareness of my environment,
>>and the convenience of seeing when I otherwise might grope around for that
>>is right in front of me a few inches.  I think your reaction is reverse
>>discrimination against sighted persons, to the point that you consider
>>someone seeking for vision to be a traitor.  This is as unhealthy an
>>attitude as hating yourself because you are blind.
>>Off soapbox.  I know I'm going to hear flames, but so be it.
>>--le
>
>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allowsblindpeopleto
>>detectobjects'
>
>
>>Well, John, obviously, you want it; and therefore, I conclude that you are
>>not as well adjusted to your blindness as you really ought to be.  Since 
>>you
>>wanted a frank answer, there you go.  Perhaps, however, you didn't expect 
>>it
>>to be so direct.  Any person who has not, for what ever reason, well
>>adjusted to their blindness will or might feel that something is lacking;
>>and, therefore, will welcome the chip to cause them to see.  In my
>>situation, however, sight would really not fix anything.  We tend to see
>>ourselves as others see us; and, this means, whether we like it or not, 
>>that
>>if people generally think a blind person can't do anything, (and if that
>>blind person not well adjusted to blindness only sarounds himself with
>>people who think as he does), then, of course, he's going to believe the
>>same about himself.  the very fact that anyone whom so ever could want 
>>such
>>a chip is a reflection of a lack of proper knowledge about blindness; and,
>>to be frank, an acceptance of the eronious belief that we blind are
>>inferior.
>>Sincerely,
>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>
>>Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>
>>Skype Name:
>>barefootedray
>
>>On Nov 4, 2010, at 1:28 PM, John Heim wrote:
>
>>> No, there's nothing wrong with being satisfied with being blind.  But
>>> that's not what you said. You said that if someone  is well adjusted, 
>>> you
>>> don't see why they'd find this desirable.  This implies that if you want
>>> this device, you're not well adjusted. But rather than relying on
>>> implications, I asked you straight out.
>>>
>>> So let me ask you again, are you saying that anyone who wants this 
>>> device
>>> is not well adjusted to being blind?
>>>
>>> Hint: I'm trying to give you an opportunity to not be a judgmental, self
>>> righteous SOB. I suggest you take it.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blindpeopleto
>>> detectobjects'
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is correct John.  I don't need or want a chip to make me see. 
>>>> Why?
>>>> Simple.  I'm happy with myself as a blind person.  Anything the matter
>>>> with that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 4, 2010, at 1:00 PM, John Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that if you are well
>>>>> adjusted to being blind, you wouldn't want a chip to allow you to see?
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:14 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blind peopleto
>>>>> detectobjects'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope.  My brain's just fine like it is.
>>>>>> Honestly, if one adjusts to blindness, why would one want such a 
>>>>>> thing?
>>>>>> IF not well adjusted, then I suppose one might want such a thing. 
>>>>>> but,
>>>>>> what with the programs we have in place, one would think such a chip
>>>>>> undesirable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 4, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have no desires for that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cell number: 509-475-4993
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Jennifer Aberdeen
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 5:30 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blind people to
>>>>>>> detectobjects'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank God!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is great news!
>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> _______________________
>>>>>>> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness
>>>>>>> products!
>>>>>>> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Get paid to read email!
>>>>>>> http://www.sendearnings.com/?r=ref1487633
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Chrane"
>>>>>>> <kenneth.chrane at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: <CSDB-ALUMNI at googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 8:21 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blind people to
>>>>>>> detectobjects'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you think about this Article?
>>>>>>>> Ken Chrane
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lela Behee
>>>>>>>> To: venetian-blind at googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:38 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Implanted chip 'allows blind people to detect objects'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though this may not be helpful for those of us who have prosthetic
>>>>>>>> eyes
>>>>>>>> and so have no retina, what a very exciting leap forward this is in
>>>>>>>> technology!
>>>>>>>> Praise our Lord!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2 November 2010 Last updated at 20:49 ET
>>>>>>>> Implanted chip 'allows blind people to detect objects'
>>>>>>>> By Neil Bowdler Science reporter, BBC News
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miikka Terho is given the task of reading letters which together
>>>>>>>> misspell
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> own name
>>>>>>>> A man with an inherited form of blindness has been able to identify
>>>>>>>> letters and
>>>>>>>> a clock face using a pioneering implant, researchers say.
>>>>>>>> Miikka Terho, 46, from Finland, was fitted with an experimental 
>>>>>>>> chip
>>>>>>>> behind his
>>>>>>>> retina in Germany. Success was also reported in other patients.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The chip allows a patient to detect objects with their eyes, unlike 
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> rival
>>>>>>>> approach that uses an external camera.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Details of the work are in the journal Proceedings of the Royal
>>>>>>>> Society B.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor Eberhart Zrenner, of Germany's University of Tuebingen, 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> colleagues
>>>>>>>> at private company Retina Implant AG initially tested their
>>>>>>>> sub-retinal
>>>>>>>> chip on
>>>>>>>> 11 people.
>>>>>>>> Some noticed no improvement as their condition was too advanced to
>>>>>>>> benefit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the implant, but a majority were able to pick out bright objects,
>>>>>>>> Prof
>>>>>>>> Zrenner
>>>>>>>> told the BBC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, it was only when the chip was placed further behind the
>>>>>>>> retina,
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> central macular area in three people, that they achieved the best
>>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two of these had lost their vision because of the inherited 
>>>>>>>> condition
>>>>>>>> retinitis
>>>>>>>> pigmentosa, or RP, the other because of a related inherited 
>>>>>>>> condition
>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>> choroideraemia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RP leads to the progressive degeneration of cells in the eye's
>>>>>>>> retina,
>>>>>>>> resulting
>>>>>>>> in night blindness, tunnel vision and then usually permanent
>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> symptoms can begin from early childhood.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The best results were achieved with Mr Terho, who was able to
>>>>>>>> recognise
>>>>>>>> cutlery
>>>>>>>> and a mug on a table, a clock face and discern seven different 
>>>>>>>> shades
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> grey.
>>>>>>>> He was also able to move around a room independently and approach
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In further tests he read large letters set out before him, 
>>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>> which had been deliberately misspelled. He soon noticed it had been
>>>>>>>> spelt
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> same way as the Finnish racing driver Mika Hakkinnen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Three or four days after the implantation, when everything was
>>>>>>>> healed, I
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> like wow, there's activity," he told the BBC from his home in
>>>>>>>> Finland.
>>>>>>>> "Right after that, if my eye hit the light, then I was able to see
>>>>>>>> flashes, some
>>>>>>>> activity which I hadn't had.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Then day after day when we started working with it, practising, 
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> started
>>>>>>>> seeing better and better all the time."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Soon Mr Terho was able to read letters by training his mind to 
>>>>>>>> bring
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> component lines that comprised the letters together.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The prototype implant has now been removed, but he has been 
>>>>>>>> promised
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> upgraded
>>>>>>>> version soon. He says it can make a difference to his life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "What I realised in those days was that it was such a great feeling
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> focus on
>>>>>>>> something," he says.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Even having a limited ability to see with the chip, it will be 
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> orientation, either walking somewhere or being able to see that
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> before you even if you don't see all the tiny details of the 
>>>>>>>> object."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Electrical impulses
>>>>>>>> The chip works by converting light that enters the eye into
>>>>>>>> electrical
>>>>>>>> impulses
>>>>>>>> which are fed into the optic nerve behind the eye.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is externally powered and in the initial study was connected to 
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> cable
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> protruded from the skin behind the ear to connect with a battery.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The team are now testing an upgrade in which the device is all
>>>>>>>> contained
>>>>>>>> beneath
>>>>>>>> the skin, with power delivered though the skin via an external 
>>>>>>>> device
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> clips
>>>>>>>> behind the ear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is by no means the only approach being taken by scientists to
>>>>>>>> try to
>>>>>>>> restore some visual ability to people with retinal dysfunction -
>>>>>>>> what's
>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>> retinal dystrophy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A rival chip by US-based Second Sight that sits on top of the 
>>>>>>>> retina
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>> been implanted in patients, but that technique requires the patient
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> fitted
>>>>>>>> with a camera fixed to a pair of glasses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charities gave the news of the latest work a cautious welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Head, of the British Retinitis Pigmentosa Society, said: 
>>>>>>>> "It's
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> fascinating work, but it doesn't restore vision. It rather gives
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> signals
>>>>>>>> which help them to interpret."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peoria Blind Center
>>>>>>>> www.peoriablindcenter.org
>>>>>>>> Here is the name of the group on facebook: PeoriArea Blind People's
>>>>>>>> Center.  Your friends on facebook are going to have to get on
>>>>>>>> their facebook account and search for the group's name to join, or 
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> what we are about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups
>>>>>>>> "venetian blind" group.
>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to 
>>>>>>>> venetian-blind at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>>> venetian-blind+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/venetian-blind?hl=en.
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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