[nfb-talk] Fw: Implantedchip 'allowsblindpeopleto detectobjects'

Fri Nov 5 19:07:50 UTC 2010

I guess that car would depend on if I could let it unwind on the autobahn or 
not.  (smile)  As to the chip, I have to wonder if those who are saying that 
they would not take it because they are so well-adjusted to their blindness 
and those who would are not, don't have a subconscious liking of being 
thought of as "so well adjusted" and "amazing".  And I'm guessing we all 
know people who if sight were available to them could not just sit around 
and live off SSI or SSDI anymore.  They no longer could just do this because 
society would not be see easy on them.  Wrongly or rightly, society does 
tend to excuse the blind for doing this.  I know most of us do not excuse 
ourselves for this, but a lot of society does.  This might not be the case 
though if a method to regain sight was available.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael D. Barber" <michael.nfbi at gmail.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implantedchip 'allowsblindpeopleto 
detectobjects'

> You know, I've been following this discussion today, and I certainly can
> understand the high emotions I see exhibited on both sides of this issue.
>
> I've never been able to see, so have no clue what it'd be like to have
> sight.  I suspect, however, that the sudden impact it would create might 
> be
> rather devastating at first.   Would I grasp the opportunity?  Would I pay
> lots of money to have it?  I don't really know.  I suspect I would not. 
> I'm
> not saying that those who would are wrong.  For me, I'm not sure I would.
>
> Now, if they actually perfect an automated car like Google seems to be
> working toward, I just might try one of those.  (smile)
>
> Michael Barber
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 7:56 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List; qubit
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implantedchip 'allowsblindpeopleto
> detectobjects'
>
> I would submit that at least I don't know enough about this device to know
> whether I would want it or not.  I don't think, Ray, it is as simple as 
> you
> make it out to be, nor is it as simple to me as John makes it out to me. 
> If
> I could have vision at very low cost and at very low risk, I would take 
> it.
> If, however, having this device would require that I take antirejection
> treatments for the rest of my life or if the cost is such that it would be
> like buying a second home, I wouldn't find that worth the risk.  I would
> certainly be curious to see what vision is like, but I don't see having
> vision as such a benefit to be worth a cost that would leave me strapped 
> or
> at the risk of my health.  If one were to be willing to take an implant 
> that
> provided vision at the risk of leaving one's kids without a parent, for
> example, I would wonder about that persons priorities and whether their
> blindness was unnecessarily limiting them.  I think, though, that we have 
> to
> recognize that there will be some honest differences between individuals
> that can't be attributed solely to one's adjustment.  Also, we would have 
> to
> consider what getting vision back really means.  Those who think that they
> could get vision back and immediately get a higher paying job may be
> disappointed.  The experience of some indicates that it takes time to 
> learn
> how to adequately use vision when one gets it back, and one would most
> likely not be able to immediately drive, for example.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:41:45 -0500, qubit wrote:
>
>>Ray, I'm afraid I agree with John on this one.  The reason why I would
>>want more vision has nothing to do with the way I look to other people;
>>it would be done solely for my personal enjoyment and awareness of my
>>environment, and the convenience of seeing when I otherwise might grope
>>around for that is right in front of me a few inches.  I think your
>>reaction is reverse discrimination against sighted persons, to the
>>point that you consider someone seeking for vision to be a traitor.
>>This is as unhealthy an attitude as hating yourself because you are blind.
>>Off soapbox.  I know I'm going to hear flames, but so be it.
>>--le
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allowsblindpeopleto
>>detectobjects'
>
>
>>Well, John, obviously, you want it; and therefore, I conclude that you are
>>not as well adjusted to your blindness as you really ought to be.  Since
> you
>>wanted a frank answer, there you go.  Perhaps, however, you didn't expect
> it
>>to be so direct.  Any person who has not, for what ever reason, well
>>adjusted to their blindness will or might feel that something is lacking;
>>and, therefore, will welcome the chip to cause them to see.  In my
>>situation, however, sight would really not fix anything.  We tend to see
>>ourselves as others see us; and, this means, whether we like it or not,
> that
>>if people generally think a blind person can't do anything, (and if that
>>blind person not well adjusted to blindness only sarounds himself with
>>people who think as he does), then, of course, he's going to believe the
>>same about himself.  the very fact that anyone whom so ever could want 
>>such
>
>>a chip is a reflection of a lack of proper knowledge about blindness; and,
>>to be frank, an acceptance of the eronious belief that we blind are
>>inferior.
>>Sincerely,
>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>
>>Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>
>>Skype Name:
>>barefootedray
>
>>On Nov 4, 2010, at 1:28 PM, John Heim wrote:
>
>>> No, there's nothing wrong with being satisfied with being blind.  But
>>> that's not what you said. You said that if someone  is well adjusted, 
>>> you
>
>>> don't see why they'd find this desirable.  This implies that if you want
>>> this device, you're not well adjusted. But rather than relying on
>>> implications, I asked you straight out.
>>>
>>> So let me ask you again, are you saying that anyone who wants this 
>>> device
>
>>> is not well adjusted to being blind?
>>>
>>> Hint: I'm trying to give you an opportunity to not be a judgmental, self
>>> righteous SOB. I suggest you take it.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blindpeopleto
>>> detectobjects'
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is correct John.  I don't need or want a chip to make me see. 
>>>> Why?
>
>>>> Simple.  I'm happy with myself as a blind person.  Anything the matter
>>>> with that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 4, 2010, at 1:00 PM, John Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that if you are well
>>>>> adjusted to being blind, you wouldn't want a chip to allow you to see?
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:14 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blind peopleto
>>>>> detectobjects'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope.  My brain's just fine like it is.
>>>>>> Honestly, if one adjusts to blindness, why would one want such a
> thing?
>>>>>> IF not well adjusted, then I suppose one might want such a thing.
> but,
>>>>>> what with the programs we have in place, one would think such a chip
>>>>>> undesirable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 4, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have no desires for that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cell number: 509-475-4993
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Jennifer Aberdeen
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 5:30 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blind people to
>>>>>>> detectobjects'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank God!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is great news!
>>>>>>>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> _______________________
>>>>>>> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness
>>>>>>> products!
>>>>>>> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Get paid to read email!
>>>>>>> http://www.sendearnings.com/?r=ref1487633
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Chrane"
>>>>>>> <kenneth.chrane at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: <CSDB-ALUMNI at googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 8:21 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Fw: Implanted chip 'allows blind people to
>>>>>>> detectobjects'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you think about this Article?
>>>>>>>> Ken Chrane
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lela Behee
>>>>>>>> To: venetian-blind at googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:38 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Implanted chip 'allows blind people to detect objects'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though this may not be helpful for those of us who have prosthetic
>>>>>>>> eyes
>>>>>>>> and so have no retina, what a very exciting leap forward this is in
>>>>>>>> technology!
>>>>>>>> Praise our Lord!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2 November 2010 Last updated at 20:49 ET
>>>>>>>> Implanted chip 'allows blind people to detect objects'
>>>>>>>> By Neil Bowdler Science reporter, BBC News
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miikka Terho is given the task of reading letters which together
>>>>>>>> misspell
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> own name
>>>>>>>> A man with an inherited form of blindness has been able to identify
>>>>>>>> letters and
>>>>>>>> a clock face using a pioneering implant, researchers say.
>>>>>>>> Miikka Terho, 46, from Finland, was fitted with an experimental 
>>>>>>>> chip
>>>>>>>> behind his
>>>>>>>> retina in Germany. Success was also reported in other patients.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The chip allows a patient to detect objects with their eyes, unlike
> a
>>>>>>>> rival
>>>>>>>> approach that uses an external camera.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Details of the work are in the journal Proceedings of the Royal
>>>>>>>> Society B.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor Eberhart Zrenner, of Germany's University of Tuebingen,
> and
>>>>>>>> colleagues
>>>>>>>> at private company Retina Implant AG initially tested their
>>>>>>>> sub-retinal
>>>>>>>> chip on
>>>>>>>> 11 people.
>>>>>>>> Some noticed no improvement as their condition was too advanced to
>>>>>>>> benefit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the implant, but a majority were able to pick out bright objects,
>>>>>>>> Prof
>>>>>>>> Zrenner
>>>>>>>> told the BBC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, it was only when the chip was placed further behind the
>>>>>>>> retina,
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> central macular area in three people, that they achieved the best
>>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two of these had lost their vision because of the inherited
> condition
>>>>>>>> retinitis
>>>>>>>> pigmentosa, or RP, the other because of a related inherited
> condition
>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>> choroideraemia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RP leads to the progressive degeneration of cells in the eye's
>>>>>>>> retina,
>>>>>>>> resulting
>>>>>>>> in night blindness, tunnel vision and then usually permanent
>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> symptoms can begin from early childhood.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The best results were achieved with Mr Terho, who was able to
>>>>>>>> recognise
>>>>>>>> cutlery
>>>>>>>> and a mug on a table, a clock face and discern seven different
> shades
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> grey.
>>>>>>>> He was also able to move around a room independently and approach
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In further tests he read large letters set out before him, 
>>>>>>>> including
>
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> name,
>>>>>>>> which had been deliberately misspelled. He soon noticed it had been
>>>>>>>> spelt
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> same way as the Finnish racing driver Mika Hakkinnen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Three or four days after the implantation, when everything was
>>>>>>>> healed, I
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> like wow, there's activity," he told the BBC from his home in
>>>>>>>> Finland.
>>>>>>>> "Right after that, if my eye hit the light, then I was able to see
>>>>>>>> flashes, some
>>>>>>>> activity which I hadn't had.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Then day after day when we started working with it, practising,
> then
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> started
>>>>>>>> seeing better and better all the time."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Soon Mr Terho was able to read letters by training his mind to 
>>>>>>>> bring
>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> component lines that comprised the letters together.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The prototype implant has now been removed, but he has been 
>>>>>>>> promised
>
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> upgraded
>>>>>>>> version soon. He says it can make a difference to his life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "What I realised in those days was that it was such a great feeling
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> focus on
>>>>>>>> something," he says.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Even having a limited ability to see with the chip, it will be 
>>>>>>>> good
>
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> orientation, either walking somewhere or being able to see that
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> before you even if you don't see all the tiny details of the
> object."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Electrical impulses
>>>>>>>> The chip works by converting light that enters the eye into
>>>>>>>> electrical
>>>>>>>> impulses
>>>>>>>> which are fed into the optic nerve behind the eye.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is externally powered and in the initial study was connected to 
>>>>>>>> a
>
>>>>>>>> cable
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> protruded from the skin behind the ear to connect with a battery.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The team are now testing an upgrade in which the device is all
>>>>>>>> contained
>>>>>>>> beneath
>>>>>>>> the skin, with power delivered though the skin via an external
> device
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> clips
>>>>>>>> behind the ear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is by no means the only approach being taken by scientists to
>>>>>>>> try to
>>>>>>>> restore some visual ability to people with retinal dysfunction -
>>>>>>>> what's
>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>> retinal dystrophy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A rival chip by US-based Second Sight that sits on top of the 
>>>>>>>> retina
>
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>> been implanted in patients, but that technique requires the patient
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> fitted
>>>>>>>> with a camera fixed to a pair of glasses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charities gave the news of the latest work a cautious welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Head, of the British Retinitis Pigmentosa Society, said: 
>>>>>>>> "It's
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> fascinating work, but it doesn't restore vision. It rather gives
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> signals
>>>>>>>> which help them to interpret."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peoria Blind Center
>>>>>>>> www.peoriablindcenter.org
>>>>>>>> Here is the name of the group on facebook: PeoriArea Blind People's
>>>>>>>> Center.  Your friends on facebook are going to have to get on
>>>>>>>> their facebook account and search for the group's name to join, or
> to
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> what we are about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups
>>>>>>>> "venetian blind" group.
>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
> venetian-blind at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>>> venetian-blind+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/venetian-blind?hl=en.
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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