[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Wed Apr 13 15:58:37 UTC 2011


John,

I think that you have hit the nail right on the head as they say, and this is not just a CAPTCHA problem but a general accessibility problem.  We are a small 
enough market that people look at some of the access issues we have as not being worth addressing unless we can show we visit the pages or use the 
software.  Companies that sell don't care that much because the number of customers they loose will cost them less than the efforts they might have to 
make to build in accessibility where it doesn't exist.  The cost is less when they design it in, of course.  However, as I see it, much of our problem is with 
development tools that don't address accessibility but leave it to those who use the tools who sometimes have to work around the development tools.  I just 
took a Zoomarang survey that had elements that were not accessible, and I know some of us have complained to them for years, but I'll complain again.  
We still do not have very good access to Java, and I know from personal experience that there has been work on Java accessibility going on for fifteen 
years or so.  

I am a member of a credit union who requires a CAPTCHA every time I log in in addition to my password, and there is no audio alternative.  What is ironic is 
that if I print out the screen and look at the CAPTCHA with an Optacon, I find that the CAPTCHA letters are very regular and clear and likely would OCR 
very nicely.  In other words, they are a barrier to me but likely would put up little resistance to a hacker.  And of course, even the audio alternative shafts 
persons who are blind and have hearing loss.  They don't have to be deaf-blind in the absolute sense because the audio is often intentionally made unclear.  

I ran into a problem where Baracuda Networks prevented an e-mail I sent from being delivered because my IP Address was on a list of IP addresses that 
they had flagged.  Besides the fact that they don't give me any information as to the specifics so I could track it down, I could not even begin the process of 
correcting the problem without solving a CAPTCHA with no audio alternative.  I couldn't even submit a form to their e-mail address without getting by the 
CAPTCHA.  This company appears to have at least some government contracts but this still happens.

CAPTCHAs are a specific case of general security problems.  Security cards that display characters that need to be entered, keypads that randomly 
reassign keys to hide input from an observer, and controls on web pages in general that are designed to have a visual presence while being undiscoverable 
by scripts cause us problems because we depend upon machines to provide us access, the same machines that hackers and spammers are using.  What 
we are trying to do at the national level by legally challenging where the law applies is probably the most effective thing we can do for now. .  What scares 
me a little is that in a poorer economy, especially one that causes budget cuts in government, consideration of accessibility may take a back seat to many 
other issues even if it is mandated in law.  We will have to be somewhat patient, but we also have to be persistent and probably come up with some 
innovative approaches ourselves..

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 08:29:34 -0500, John Heim wrote:

>A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA applies to web 
>sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is responsible 
>for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says the ADA 
>applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to court to 
>show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that determination. But 
>the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is that 
>CAPTCHAs are now illegal.

>IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to me 
>yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk really 
>long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only got her 
>to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up with 
>doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her point is 
>that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by blind 
>people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.

>I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned what a 
>bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've pointed 
>out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no difference. All 
>that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting there 
>thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending it to 
>every spammer I can find.

>By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very open 
>minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what the 
>problem is.

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)


>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but I'm
>> not having any success.
>> I've just thought of a question.
>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>> more accessible contact forms?
>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws, and a 
>> Robot?
>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read it to 
>> us.
>> What can we do?
>> Thanks for your ideas.
>> This is for all Websites.
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
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