[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Wed Apr 13 19:00:55 UTC 2011

Hello everyone,

    And we demonstrated that technology can be developed to enable the blind 
to do the seemingly impossible. If we can develop an interface  that will 
tell a blind person when to make a turn in the road we should be able to be 
just as bright and develop program solutions that would hide captcha data 
from hackers while making it available to screen reader users.

    As I told John H. earlier today depending on the Web language used to 
build the site in question the language may all ready have components that 
will kill off Web bots without the end user's never knowing it's being done 
freeing everyone from having to deal with captchas.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Peter,

You are right about the deaf-blind being left out by the audio CAPTCHA 
option.  In general, though, think about what you are saying.  If a screen 
reader can
recognize a CAPTCHA, so can a hacker.  I just don't see any clear way around 
that fact.  The problem is that we are facing some very bright programmers
who are writing viruses, hacking and otherwise making nuisances of 
themselves, we're not dealing with casual hobbyists.  It is almost certain 
that some of
them are more intelligent and accomplished than those developing our screen 
readers even if they are also criminals in some cases.  This doesn't mean I
think nothing should be done, only that it is much easier to say there is a 
solution but a lot harder to come up with one.  There are solutions such as
automatically calling you, for example, that adds a level of inconvenience 
to us, and even that leaves out the deafblind.  You could include them by
requiring that a CAPTCHA solution be sent via TDD, but then it is in a 
digital form that could be captured once a hacker thought of that approach. 
Part of
the challenge of finding a solution is that we don't completely understand 
what we're up against.  Many hackers and spammers are very smart.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:04:56 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote:

>Hello everyone,

>    Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if we 
> can
>develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind the wheel
>of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to find a way
>to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while protecting Web
>sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology to do this
>is not there doesn't wash with me.

>Peter Donahue

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

>John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in a
>church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church locater,
>are inaccessible.
>My organization's Website is like that.
>They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but it won't
>play.
>I'll post the Website here.
>www.upci.org
>I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing about this.
>Blessings, Joshua

>On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA applies to
>> web
>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is responsible
>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says the 
>> ADA
>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to court
>> to
>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that determination. 
>> But
>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is that
>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>
>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to me
>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk really
>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only got
>> her
>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up with
>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her point is
>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by blind
>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>
>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned what
>> a
>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've pointed
>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no difference.
>> All
>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting there
>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending it to
>> every spammer I can find.
>>
>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very open
>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what the
>> problem is.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>
>>
>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but I'm
>>> not having any success.
>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws, and 
>>> a
>>> Robot?
>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read it to
>>> us.
>>> What can we do?
>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>> This is for all Websites.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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