[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Thu Apr 14 14:12:05 UTC 2011

Hello Joshua and others,

    No. Captcha images cannot be read with Braille displays which is why the 
audio captchas are a problem for those who are deaf-blind.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

I have a question for those of you, that serf the Web, using note takers.
Will the refreshable Braille displays let you read captcha?
I'm just wondering.
I think, the only solution for my problem, will be to purchase a
refreshabel Braille display.
None of the sighted members of my family will help me.
They have lives, to.
Thanks for your help.
Blessings, Joshua

On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> Joshua:
>
> There *is* a way to solve the problem.  But you're not going to like it.
>
> Drum-roll, please!  **Use a sighted reader!!!!!!**  Told ya you wouldn't
> like it!  But it works every time.  I know it's inconvenient and not 
> always
> practical.  But don't you remember?  We never said blindness was *not* a
> physical nuisance; we only said that it could be reduced to a physical
> nuisance.
>
> In other words, I do not believe the problem is solvable as long as we use
> machines for our information access.  If we can use them, so can the
> spammers.
>
> Relax and enjoy the ride!
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Joshua Lester
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:12 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>
> We need to do something about them.
> It's because of them, that we can't access many Websites.
> All I want, is for there to be a way where we can deal with this captcha.
> How can we solve this problem?
> That's my main objective with this thread.
> We need to invent another alternative, and try to get it accepted.
> Any computer whizzes, out there?
> Let's work on the software.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 4/13/11, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> Joshua and others, discussion of CAPTCHA's and how they impact the
>> blind is on topic for this list, but discussion of punishment for
>> spammers, immigrants etc., is not.  Further, many of the spammers are
>> from the good old U.S. of A.  Where are you going to send them?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 09:20 PM 4/13/2011, you wrote:
>>>If we're investigating spammers, it's something to consider.
>>>I'm not starting a debate on illegal imigration, I'm just giving an
>>>idea on who some of these people are.
>>>Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>>On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> > Let's avoid that topic, shall we?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Mike Freeman
>>> > sent from my iPhone
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Apr 13, 2011, at 16:02, Joshua Lester
>>> > <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> That's another great idea!
>>> >> Also, ship the illegals back!
>>> >> I wouldn't be surprised, if some of the spammers are illegal
> imigrants.
>>> >> Blessings, Joshua
>>> >>
>>> >> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> >>> Actually what I favor is a different approach:  deny foreign aid to
>>> >>> countries that harbor spammers!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Mike Freeman
>>> >>> sent from my iPhone
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 14:16, Joshua Lester
>>> >>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Mr. Freeman, let's try to invent a new alternative.
>>> >>>> I'm not a computer genius, but if someone can do this, I'd
> appreciate
>>> >>>> it.
>>> >>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>> Guys and gals:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Let's get real here.  John Heim is absolutely correct:  his boss
> may
>>> >>>>> be
>>> >>>>> a
>>> >>>>> decent person.  But she doesn't care a farthing how CAPTCHAs 
>>> >>>>> affect
>>> >>>>> the
>>> >>>>> blind.  There aren't enough of us to truly affect offenders' 
>>> >>>>> bottom
>>> >>>>> lines.
>>> >>>>> All webmasters want is to stop spam (something all of us can
>>> >>>>> sympathize
>>> >>>>> with
>>> >>>>> unless we are the spammers!).  If a few thousand people are
>>> >>>>> inconvenienced
>>> >>>>> or shut out of sites, so what?  The Federal agency for which I 
>>> >>>>> work
>>> >>>>> gets
>>> >>>>> something like fifty thousand spam emails (yes, you heard right)
>>> >>>>> each
>>> >>>>> *week*
>>> >>>>> and this wastes a heck of a lot of resources and bandwidth.  I'd
>>> >>>>> guess
>>> >>>>> its
>>> >>>>> websites do also.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Fulminating and venting one's spleen in irrational outbursts 
>>> >>>>> avails
>>> >>>>> us
>>> >>>>> nothing.  Neither does writing to webmasters; we'd never be able 
>>> >>>>> to
>>> >>>>> cover
>>> >>>>> them all.  Even if we can get courts to rule that the ADA applies,
>>> >>>>> I'd
>>> >>>>> bet
>>> >>>>> good money that Joshua's nemesis site would fall under the
> religious
>>> >>>>> exceptions to ADA requirements.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I sympathize with everyone's indignation; I am stymied by 
>>> >>>>> CAPTCHA's
>>> >>>>> also.
>>> >>>>> But I'm realistic enough to realize that it's an ongoing race
>>> >>>>> between
>>> >>>>> spammers/hackers and web developers.  CAPTCHAs certainly aren't 
>>> >>>>> the
>>> >>>>> ultimate
>>> >>>>> answer but, I submit, any solution that would allow screen-readers
>>> >>>>> access
>>> >>>>> will also allow spammers/hackers access.  And yes, I've used Delta
>>> >>>>> Airlines
>>> >>>>> wonderful alternative to the CAPTCHA available on their flights
>>> >>>>> where
>>> >>>>> one
>>> >>>>> answers a math question.  But does this not discriminate against
> the
>>> >>>>> learning-disabled?  And I could envision a spammer employing a 
>>> >>>>> Cray
>>> >>>>> or
>>> >>>>> other
>>> >>>>> super-machine to simply sort through possible answers and
>>> >>>>> brute-force
>>> >>>>> its
>>> >>>>> way to the solution.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> My psychological defense is to figure that any website that leaves
>>> >>>>> me
>>> >>>>> out
>>> >>>>> I
>>> >>>>> don't need either.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I can see only two solutions:  build up a billion-dollar legal 
>>> >>>>> fund
>>> >>>>> to
>>> >>>>> sue
>>> >>>>> every web developer or website owner (and we must figure on losing
>>> >>>>> at
>>> >>>>> least
>>> >>>>> half the suits) or getting down to brass tacks and inventing and
>>> >>>>> patenting a
>>> >>>>> CAPTCHA alternative that appears convincing enough to be adopted 
>>> >>>>> by
>>> >>>>> a
>>> >>>>> majority of web developers.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman
>>> >>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:26, Joshua Lester
>>> >>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I also agree.
>>> >>>>>> So, what's the holdup?
>>> >>>>>> Let's get the sighted people on this list to visit every site,
>>> >>>>>> (I've
>>> >>>>>> mentioned the sites on the Music Talk list,) and contact the
>>> >>>>>> Webmasters.
>>> >>>>>> Some of us can't contact them, because of the captcha.
>>> >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On 4/13/11, Gloria Whipple <ladygloria at webband.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>> Peter,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I agree with you all the way!
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>> >>>>>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>> >>>>>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>> >>>>>>> nfb of WA
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >>>>>>> On
>>> >>>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:05
>>> >>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>  Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes
> if
>>> >>>>>>> we
>>> >>>>>>> can
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind
>>> >>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>> wheel
>>> >>>>>>> of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to
>>> >>>>>>> find
>>> >>>>>>> a
>>> >>>>>>> way
>>> >>>>>>> to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while
>>> >>>>>>> protecting
>>> >>>>>>> Web
>>> >>>>>>> sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology
>>> >>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>> do
>>> >>>>>>> this
>>> >>>>>>> is not there doesn't wash with me.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> >>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people 
>>> >>>>>>> in
>>> >>>>>>> a
>>> >>>>>>> church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church
>>> >>>>>>> locater,
>>> >>>>>>> are inaccessible.
>>> >>>>>>> My organization's Website is like that.
>>> >>>>>>> They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but
>>> >>>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>>> won't
>>> >>>>>>> play.
>>> >>>>>>> I'll post the Website here.
>>> >>>>>>> www.upci.org
>>> >>>>>>> I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing
>>> >>>>>>> about
>>> >>>>>>> this.
>>> >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA
>>> >>>>>>>> applies
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> web
>>> >>>>>>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is
>>> >>>>>>>> responsible
>>> >>>>>>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice
>>> >>>>>>>> says
>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>> ADA
>>> >>>>>>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to 
>>> >>>>>>>> go
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> court
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that
>>> >>>>>>>> determination.
>>> >>>>>>>> But
>>> >>>>>>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point 
>>> >>>>>>>> is
>>> >>>>>>>> that
>>> >>>>>>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss
> came
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> me
>>> >>>>>>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to
> talk
>>> >>>>>>>> really
>>> >>>>>>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I
>>> >>>>>>>> only
>>> >>>>>>>> got
>>> >>>>>>>> her
>>> >>>>>>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I 
>>> >>>>>>>> came
>>> >>>>>>>> up
>>> >>>>>>>> with
>>> >>>>>>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. 
>>> >>>>>>>> Her
>>> >>>>>>>> point
>>> >>>>>>>> is
>>> >>>>>>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very 
>>> >>>>>>>> often
>>> >>>>>>>> by
>>> >>>>>>>> blind
>>> >>>>>>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even
>>> >>>>>>>> mentioned
>>> >>>>>>>> what
>>> >>>>>>>> a
>>> >>>>>>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software.
> I've
>>> >>>>>>>> pointed
>>> >>>>>>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no
>>> >>>>>>>> difference.
>>> >>>>>>>> All
>>> >>>>>>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was
>>> >>>>>>>> sitting
>>> >>>>>>>> there
>>> >>>>>>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and
>>> >>>>>>>> sending
>>> >>>>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> every spammer I can find.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is
> very
>>> >>>>>>>> open
>>> >>>>>>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see
> what
>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>>>> problem is.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> >>>>>>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>> >>>>>>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list,
> but
>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm
>>> >>>>>>>>> not having any success.
>>> >>>>>>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>> >>>>>>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to
>>> >>>>>>>>> make
>>> >>>>>>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>> >>>>>>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between
>>> >>>>>>>>> Jaws,
>>> >>>>>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>>>>> a
>>> >>>>>>>>> Robot?
>>> >>>>>>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and
>>> >>>>>>>>> read
>>> >>>>>>>>> it
>>> >>>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>>> us.
>>> >>>>>>>>> What can we do?
>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>> >>>>>>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>> >>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>>
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