[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Thu Apr 14 15:25:23 UTC 2011

Would that work when signing up to Gmail? I have a horrible time when I get to the Captcha. I also here for screen readers, go here. When I  do that, I here click on to the accessible icon. That is as far as I went. What accessible icon!

Gloria Whipple
Corresponding Secretary
Inland Empire chapter
nfb of WA

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 07:20
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Hello Joseph and others,

    I also said there are other alternatives such as using a Web languages 
tags and components to screen out bots and freeing visitors from having to 
deal with captchas. ASP.NET has such tags. When I find the exact code I'll 
post it but I did see it. Perhaps other Web languages such as PHP, 
ColdFusion, Ruby-on-Rails, etc have similar tags/components. Hence by using 
these modules machines could be programmed to "Police" themselves saving 
site and application users from having to deal with annoyances like 
captchas.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Peter,

CAPTCHAs exist to prevent machines from being able to decipher them
without the assistance of a human being’s brain.

You propose that it must be possible to create a CAPTCHA that can be
deciphered by a machine by itself, but that still functions in such a
way that a machine cannot decipher it.

You are asking for dry water that’s still wet.

Joseph

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 02:00:55PM -0500, Peter Donahue wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>    And we demonstrated that technology can be developed to enable the 
> blind
>to do the seemingly impossible. If we can develop an interface  that will
>tell a blind person when to make a turn in the road we should be able to be
>just as bright and develop program solutions that would hide captcha data
>from hackers while making it available to screen reader users.
>
>    As I told John H. earlier today depending on the Web language used to
>build the site in question the language may all ready have components that
>will kill off Web bots without the end user's never knowing it's being done
>freeing everyone from having to deal with captchas.
>
>Peter Donahue
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 11:37 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>
>
>Peter,
>
>You are right about the deaf-blind being left out by the audio CAPTCHA
>option.  In general, though, think about what you are saying.  If a screen
>reader can
>recognize a CAPTCHA, so can a hacker.  I just don't see any clear way 
>around
>that fact.  The problem is that we are facing some very bright programmers
>who are writing viruses, hacking and otherwise making nuisances of
>themselves, we're not dealing with casual hobbyists.  It is almost certain
>that some of
>them are more intelligent and accomplished than those developing our screen
>readers even if they are also criminals in some cases.  This doesn't mean I
>think nothing should be done, only that it is much easier to say there is a
>solution but a lot harder to come up with one.  There are solutions such as
>automatically calling you, for example, that adds a level of inconvenience
>to us, and even that leaves out the deafblind.  You could include them by
>requiring that a CAPTCHA solution be sent via TDD, but then it is in a
>digital form that could be captured once a hacker thought of that approach.
>Part of
>the challenge of finding a solution is that we don't completely understand
>what we're up against.  Many hackers and spammers are very smart.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Jacobson
>
>On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:04:56 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote:
>
>>Hello everyone,
>
>>    Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if we
>> can
>>develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind the wheel
>>of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to find a 
>>way
>>to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while protecting Web
>>sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology to do 
>>this
>>is not there doesn't wash with me.
>
>>Peter Donahue
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>
>
>>John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in a
>>church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church locater,
>>are inaccessible.
>>My organization's Website is like that.
>>They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but it won't
>>play.
>>I'll post the Website here.
>>www.upci.org
>>I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing about this.
>>Blessings, Joshua
>
>>On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA applies to
>>> web
>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is 
>>> responsible
>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says the
>>> ADA
>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to 
>>> court
>>> to
>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that determination.
>>> But
>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is that
>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>>
>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to me
>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk really
>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only got
>>> her
>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up with
>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her point 
>>> is
>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by 
>>> blind
>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>>
>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned 
>>> what
>>> a
>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've 
>>> pointed
>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no difference.
>>> All
>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting there
>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending it to
>>> every spammer I can find.
>>>
>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very open
>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what the
>>> problem is.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but I'm
>>>> not having any success.
>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws, and
>>>> a
>>>> Robot?
>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read it 
>>>> to
>>>> us.
>>>> What can we do?
>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>
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