[nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from ChairmanGordon Gund
John Heim
john at johnheim.net
Sun Apr 24 22:45:54 UTC 2011
Constance, do you have an open mind on this issue? Could anything I say
convince you that I am arguing in good faith? I don't believe so.
Here are some facts:
1. I have never reacted in anger to anything said about me on this list
2. I have never instulted anyone on this list
3. I just took 3 months where I read but did not respond to the messages on
this list.
4. I provide links and documentation for the things I say on this list.
5. Its not true that I never agree with anything the NFB does.
Its true that I have a lot of problems with the policies of the NFB and
those positions have created a great deal of controversy on this list.
That's one of the reasons you think I hever have anything good to say about
the NFB, the things we agree on are not controversial.
So anyway, tell me, what can I do to convince you that I'm arguing in good
faith?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Constance Canode" <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
ChairmanGordon Gund
>I know I will probably get kicked off of the list for this, but so be it.
>I have an idea. I really believe that John is trying to keep himself in
>the limelight and is in need of attention. Maybe if we totally ignore his
>comments, don't give him any attnetion whatsoever, he will do us all a
>favor and go away. Others have done this in the past and they went away
>also. Just keep hitting the delete key as I have been doing. I am just
>tired of reading this stuff.
>
> I do hope that everyone had a lovely Easter and too much to eat. I know
> we certainly did and we haven't had dessert yet.
> At 05:01 PM 4/24/2011, you wrote:
>>For the record, I never said any of the following things:
>>
>>1. you all want blind people to beg for help from sighted people
>>2. If you oppose a particular modification to the US currency, you want
>>blind people to be helpless and dependent, .
>>3. John's blanket statement is that we oppose doing this ]accessible
>>money] on every level,
>>4. If you oppose chirping signals, you want blind people to die crossing
>>streets
>>5. John's blanket assertion is that we oppose them [audible walk signals]
>>universally
>>
>>I could probably keep going but I think that's enough. I notice, Joseph,
>>that you never quote me directly. You never respond to what I actually
>>say. This current tirade is the result of a statement I made that the NFB
>>has said that instead of adding tactile markings to our money, blind
>>people should get sighted assistance to identify their money. That's a
>>fact. Dr. Maurer said exactly that in his testimony before Congress. From
>>that *factual* statement on my part, you accuse me of saying that the NFB
>>wants all blind people to be dependent. Well, I simply didn't say anything
>>of the sort.
>>
>>I can only hope that more rational, fairer memvers of this list will see
>>how unfair you are being. You keep accusing me of being unwilling to
>>acknowledge that the NFB is in favor of walk signals under some
>>circumstances. Yet I have indeed acknowledged that many times. So
>>continuing to accuse me of that is simply dishonest.
>>
>>Likewise, I never said the NFB is totally opposed to accessible money.
>>You're accusing me of being too bullheaded to retract a statement I never
>>even made. Its insane.
>>
>>For the record, I don't think the NFB is totally against audible walk
>>signals under all circumstances. And I know the NFB has expressed support
>>for accessible money at times. I'd really appreciate if you'd stop
>>accusing me of saying otherwise.
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter"
>><carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 7:06 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>
>>
>>>I just get so tired of the same damned unrelenting straw men brought up
>>>time and again, anywhere he can wedge these things in, whether they make
>>>sense or not. He's not been back two weeks and already we're all
>>>illogical, unethical, and he's back to the straw man about how we all
>>>want blind people to beg for help from sighted people.
>>>
>>>If I have learned one thing from politics, it's that certain parties
>>>always want to re-frame the argument so that either you agree with them,
>>>or you are against something that nobody ever would be. Either I am
>>>right, or you support cruelty to kittens! What do kittens have to do
>>>with anything?
>>>
>>>So if you listen to John, if you oppose a particular modification to the
>>>US currency, you want blind people to be helpless and dependent, despite
>>>the fact that very few are helpless or dependent in this matter today,
>>>unless it be by choice. Money identifiers are now $100, and my cell
>>>phone can do it for the huge investment of TWO BUCKS. John and I
>>>basically agree that electronic identifiers are not a suitable solution
>>>to the problem, and yet I cannot support his baseless attacks (and
>>>incessant) incendiary claims against the NFB on even this issue. Despite
>>>the NFB's involvement in making the currency accessible, John's blanket
>>>statement is that we oppose doing this on every level, and in THREE YEARS
>>>(or longer, I think) he has yet to accept a single person's claim to the
>>>contrary.
>>>
>>>If you oppose chirping signals, you want blind people to die crossing
>>>streets. An outright lie. The NFB opposed these things because the data
>>>showed that they drowned out cars resulting in more blind people at risk,
>>>not less. Moreover, as of eight or nine years ago, the NFB has been
>>>actively developing a safe replacement for these squawking monsters, and
>>>the documented position of the organization is that we support their
>>>installation when they will benefit people. John's blanket assertion is
>>>that we oppose them universally. Our own resolutions to the contrary are
>>>not evidence, and nobody can prove otherwise to his satisfaction.
>>>
>>>If you oppose blanket mandates for descriptive video without any
>>>consideration of what kind of descriptive video would be useful or in
>>>what context, then you are a monster who wants blind people to be
>>>deprived, uninformed, and miserable. The fact that descriptive video
>>>doesn't actually exist as any kind of standard like closed captioning
>>>does and that it's just shoehorned haphazardly into SAP channels, that
>>>nobody has actually determined what to describe or how, or that any
>>>effort to mandate this now can only serve to prevent a universal and
>>>standardized solution from emerging is irrelevant. Again we have the
>>>blanket assertion that the NFB opposes what is good and right, is evil
>>>for doing so, and not one single argument to the contrary is ever
>>>afforded even a first thought, let alone a second.
>>>
>>>I could go on, at length, but the fact remains that nobody has ever
>>>swayed John Heim on a single issue, ever, in the history of his presence
>>>on this list. We are all just illogical, unethical, and he is brutalized
>>>and attacked from all sides, asking Dave Andrews to sanction anyone who
>>>bruises his poor, fragile ego. He can dish it out, in spades, in the
>>>most incendiary language possible, but he can't take his own medicine.
>>>
>>>And more importantly, he won't shut the hell up about any of it. He just
>>>continues to trash the NFB, and the good people of this list. We have
>>>not forgotten this, and it should be clear that John is immovable on
>>>pretty much anything, and that includes a fundamental belief that the NFB
>>>is harmful to the blind. So then, what is he doing here? And why is he
>>>permitted to remain, spewing this crap day after day?
>>>
>>>Joseph
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 08:16:28PM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>>Too bad that troll doesn't fall off the face of the earth!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Gloria Whipple
>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>>>nfb of WA
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>On
>>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>>>Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 17:10
>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>>>
>>>>The troll returns to one of his favorite ACB-inspired arguments about
>>>>how evil the NFB is. I say again, go away.
>>>>
>>>>Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 04:24:42PM -0500, John Heim wrote:
>>>>>Yet, the NFB would have us ask for help to identify our money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:21 PM, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well done! I like what you had to say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My prayers go out to you and I hope you get better and I hope you
>>>>>>are free
>>>>>>from cancer soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>All my best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gloria Whipple
>>>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>>>>>nfb of WA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-
>>>>>> >>>>bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>>>>>Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 19:01
>>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>>>>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gloria,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think what it boils down to is that language is a powerful thing.
>>>>>>The words a person uses are less important than the intent behind
>>>>>>them, but from a choice of certain words over others we can infer an
>>>>>>intent. I have been battling cancer. This implies something about
>>>>>>me and my relationship to cancer. I have been living with it, and I
>>>>>>don't want to be. In fact, I am fighting to make it gone, because
>>>>>>cancer is a horrible thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Am I fighting blindness? Do I suffer from blindness? Am I forced to
>>>>>>use alternative techniques? Well yes, I do suffer as a result of
>>>>>>blindness. Not because of blindness itself per se, but because of
>>>>>>the reaction of others to it who are not blind (and a few who are,
>>>>>>sadly).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The refusal to be pigeon-holed into this "sad existence" of
>>>>>>"suffering because of blindness" is precisely the kind of supposed
>>>>>>"unethical" behavior the NFB engages in by spreading our philosophy.
>>>>>>It is akin to those during the 60s arguing against the notion that
>>>>>>they were afflicted somehow with being black. Blindness is a bad
>>>>>>thing only if you make it be so, and we refuse to make it so for
>>>>>>ourselves. Moreover, we refuse to allow others to force us into that
>>>>>>role.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Those who would disparage our efforts to do so are not our friends,
>>>>>>just as those who would have you look down upon a man of color
>>>>>>because his skin was darker than, say, mine is. Is he somehow worse
>>>>>>of because of that? Is he lessened as a man or as a person? Does he
>>>>>>deserve something less, or for that matter anything more, than any
>>>>>>other person simply because of the color of his skin? Most today
>>>>>>would say out of hand that he should have the same opportunities
>>>>>>anyone would have. No more, but certainly no less!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The blind deserve the same equality that our more sunburn-resistant
>>>>>>brothers demanded more than forty years ago. In just one generation
>>>>>>we have gone from a person of color being denied the use of a
>>>>>>drinking fountain to electing him to the United States presidency.
>>>>>>If there remains racial inequality, it cannot be because of the color
>>>>>>of a person's skin anymore. Some individuals may yet harbor such
>>>>>>attitudes (and I recently observed some of those people in a public
>>>>>>display, sadly), but society rejects such people as undesirable when
>>>>>>they are exposed. (And believe me, we are exposing them all over
>>>>>>YouTube, since the local media won't even report it.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But what about the blind? The same society who refuses to allow a
>>>>>>black man to be treated as a second class citizen openly condones it
>>>>>>when a blind man is treated likewise. Disability is one of only two
>>>>>>acceptable areas of discrimination that remain in this country. (The
>>>>>>other is so far removed from topical for this list that I won't
>>>>>>discuss it here, much to Dave's relief.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We cannot continue to meekly request that we be treated as first
>>>>>>class citizens. It didn't work in the 1940s, and it hasn't worked
>>>>>>yet. Only by refusing to be anything less will we finally achieve
>>>>>>that. Unfortunately, that means getting a bit uppity over language
>>>>>>that paints us into a corner, as it were. I'm not here to be pitied
>>>>>>or someone's inspiration. I'm here because I've got a job to do, and
>>>>>>within the National Federation of the Blind, that job is to achieve
>>>>>>for myself and for all of us the basic rights of first class
>>>>>>citizenship afforded to anyone else in this country today, regardless
>>>>>>of their skin color, sexual orientation, and a whole host of other
>>>>>>things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't expect any more, but I also won't accept any less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 09:33:15AM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>>>>>James,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks for explaining what I wanted to say about this subject.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am glad someone is on my side!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Gloria Whipple
>>>>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>>>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>>>>>>nfb of WA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>nfb-talk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/ladygloria%40web
>>>>ba
>>>>>>nd.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>for nfb-talk:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.
>>>>net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>nfb-talk:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40
>>>>gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>nfb-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/ladygloria%40webba
>>>>nd.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>nfb-talk:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>nfb-talk:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.net
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>nfb-talk:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfb-talk mailing list
> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfb-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.net
>
More information about the nFB-Talk
mailing list