[nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: Reply

Sherri flmom2006 at gmail.com
Mon Apr 25 14:26:00 UTC 2011 

Steve, you are not the person they are mentioning.

Please check out the link below and help blind people in your local area 
achieve their dreams by visiting
http://www.raceforindependence.org/goto/Sherri.Brun
Thank you.

Character is the side of yourself you choose to show the world. Integrity is 
what you do, what you say and how you act when you think no one is paying 
attention.
Sherri Brun
flmom2006 at gmail.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "S Baker" <srbaker12 at hotmail.com>
To: "ANFBchat" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: Reply


>
>
> Am I the troll(not my intent) because I am a newbie and am trying to get 
> answers to the parameters of this board. I have accepted everybodies opion 
> on medical technology. I tried to clarify a misconception Carter had. My 
> other responses were to IPad and currency and do you have another board 
> "Chat" that has open discussion. Ypu show a lot of different email 
> addresses. I couldn't discern if any was open forum.
> Steve
>
> SRBaker
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 06:21:16 -0700
>> From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com
>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from 
>> ChairmanGordon Gund
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> I suggest you read the archives of this listserve. One person
>> continues to discuss the same issues, over and over again. He is not
>> satisfied with the answers he gets (and he ignores any information
>> that does not fit his anti-Federationist agenda).
>>
>> Removing him is not "censorship", it's troll-hunting.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 02:05:14AM +0000, S Baker wrote:
>> >
>> >If the talk board is constantly being censored by a few people, can the 
>> >AFB be solicited to have an uncensored board? If everybody agreed on 
>> >everything, we wouldn't need a Talk board, we could call it the Agree 
>> >Board! PEN discussion is the well spring of ideas and solutions. No one 
>> >here, that I've read could have gotten this far if they had chosen 
>> >isolation or denied improvements in technology. If you had, you would 
>> >not be on the Net.
>> >Steve
>> >
>> >
>> >SRBaker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> From: john at johnheim.net
>> >> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:45:54 -0500
>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from 
>> >> ChairmanGordon Gund
>> >>
>> >> Constance, do you have an open mind on this issue? Could anything I 
>> >> say
>> >> convince you that I am arguing in good faith? I don't believe so.
>> >>
>> >> Here are some facts:
>> >> 1. I have never reacted in anger to anything said about me on this 
>> >> list
>> >> 2. I have never instulted anyone on this list
>> >> 3. I just took 3 months where I read but did not respond to the 
>> >> messages on
>> >> this list.
>> >> 4. I provide links and documentation for the things I say on this 
>> >> list.
>> >> 5. Its not true that I never agree with anything the NFB does.
>> >>
>> >> Its true that I have a lot of problems with the policies of the NFB 
>> >> and
>> >> those positions have created a great deal of controversy on this list.
>> >> That's one of the reasons you think I hever have anything good to say 
>> >> about
>> >> the NFB, the things we agree on are not controversial.
>> >>
>> >> So anyway, tell me, what can I do to convince you that I'm arguing in 
>> >> good
>> >> faith?
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Constance Canode" <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
>> >> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 5:08 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>> >> ChairmanGordon Gund
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >I know I will probably get kicked off of the list for this, but so be 
>> >> >it.
>> >> >I have an idea. I really believe that John is trying to keep himself 
>> >> >in
>> >> >the limelight and is in need of attention. Maybe if we totally ignore 
>> >> >his
>> >> >comments, don't give him any attnetion whatsoever, he will do us all 
>> >> >a
>> >> >favor and go away. Others have done this in the past and they went 
>> >> >away
>> >> >also. Just keep hitting the delete key as I have been doing. I am 
>> >> >just
>> >> >tired of reading this stuff.
>> >> >
>> >> > I do hope that everyone had a lovely Easter and too much to eat. I 
>> >> > know
>> >> > we certainly did and we haven't had dessert yet.
>> >> > At 05:01 PM 4/24/2011, you wrote:
>> >> >>For the record, I never said any of the following things:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>1. you all want blind people to beg for help from sighted people
>> >> >>2. If you oppose a particular modification to the US currency, you 
>> >> >>want
>> >> >>blind people to be helpless and dependent, .
>> >> >>3. John's blanket statement is that we oppose doing this ]accessible
>> >> >>money] on every level,
>> >> >>4. If you oppose chirping signals, you want blind people to die 
>> >> >>crossing
>> >> >>streets
>> >> >>5. John's blanket assertion is that we oppose them [audible walk 
>> >> >>signals]
>> >> >>universally
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I could probably keep going but I think that's enough. I notice, 
>> >> >>Joseph,
>> >> >>that you never quote me directly. You never respond to what I 
>> >> >>actually
>> >> >>say. This current tirade is the result of a statement I made that 
>> >> >>the NFB
>> >> >>has said that instead of adding tactile markings to our money, blind
>> >> >>people should get sighted assistance to identify their money. That's 
>> >> >>a
>> >> >>fact. Dr. Maurer said exactly that in his testimony before Congress. 
>> >> >>From
>> >> >>that *factual* statement on my part, you accuse me of saying that 
>> >> >>the NFB
>> >> >>wants all blind people to be dependent. Well, I simply didn't say 
>> >> >>anything
>> >> >>of the sort.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I can only hope that more rational, fairer memvers of this list will 
>> >> >>see
>> >> >>how unfair you are being. You keep accusing me of being unwilling to
>> >> >>acknowledge that the NFB is in favor of walk signals under some
>> >> >>circumstances. Yet I have indeed acknowledged that many times. So
>> >> >>continuing to accuse me of that is simply dishonest.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Likewise, I never said the NFB is totally opposed to accessible 
>> >> >>money.
>> >> >>You're accusing me of being too bullheaded to retract a statement I 
>> >> >>never
>> >> >>even made. Its insane.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>For the record, I don't think the NFB is totally against audible 
>> >> >>walk
>> >> >>signals under all circumstances. And I know the NFB has expressed 
>> >> >>support
>> >> >>for accessible money at times. I'd really appreciate if you'd stop
>> >> >>accusing me of saying otherwise.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter"
>> >> >><carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>> >> >>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >> >>Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 7:06 AM
>> >> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>> >> >>ChairmanGordon Gund
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>I just get so tired of the same damned unrelenting straw men 
>> >> >>>brought up
>> >> >>>time and again, anywhere he can wedge these things in, whether they 
>> >> >>>make
>> >> >>>sense or not. He's not been back two weeks and already we're all
>> >> >>>illogical, unethical, and he's back to the straw man about how we 
>> >> >>>all
>> >> >>>want blind people to beg for help from sighted people.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>If I have learned one thing from politics, it's that certain 
>> >> >>>parties
>> >> >>>always want to re-frame the argument so that either you agree with 
>> >> >>>them,
>> >> >>>or you are against something that nobody ever would be. Either I am
>> >> >>>right, or you support cruelty to kittens! What do kittens have to 
>> >> >>>do
>> >> >>>with anything?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>So if you listen to John, if you oppose a particular modification 
>> >> >>>to the
>> >> >>>US currency, you want blind people to be helpless and dependent, 
>> >> >>>despite
>> >> >>>the fact that very few are helpless or dependent in this matter 
>> >> >>>today,
>> >> >>>unless it be by choice. Money identifiers are now $100, and my cell
>> >> >>>phone can do it for the huge investment of TWO BUCKS. John and I
>> >> >>>basically agree that electronic identifiers are not a suitable 
>> >> >>>solution
>> >> >>>to the problem, and yet I cannot support his baseless attacks (and
>> >> >>>incessant) incendiary claims against the NFB on even this issue. 
>> >> >>>Despite
>> >> >>>the NFB's involvement in making the currency accessible, John's 
>> >> >>>blanket
>> >> >>>statement is that we oppose doing this on every level, and in THREE 
>> >> >>>YEARS
>> >> >>>(or longer, I think) he has yet to accept a single person's claim 
>> >> >>>to the
>> >> >>>contrary.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>If you oppose chirping signals, you want blind people to die 
>> >> >>>crossing
>> >> >>>streets. An outright lie. The NFB opposed these things because the 
>> >> >>>data
>> >> >>>showed that they drowned out cars resulting in more blind people at 
>> >> >>>risk,
>> >> >>>not less. Moreover, as of eight or nine years ago, the NFB has been
>> >> >>>actively developing a safe replacement for these squawking 
>> >> >>>monsters, and
>> >> >>>the documented position of the organization is that we support 
>> >> >>>their
>> >> >>>installation when they will benefit people. John's blanket 
>> >> >>>assertion is
>> >> >>>that we oppose them universally. Our own resolutions to the 
>> >> >>>contrary are
>> >> >>>not evidence, and nobody can prove otherwise to his satisfaction.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>If you oppose blanket mandates for descriptive video without any
>> >> >>>consideration of what kind of descriptive video would be useful or 
>> >> >>>in
>> >> >>>what context, then you are a monster who wants blind people to be
>> >> >>>deprived, uninformed, and miserable. The fact that descriptive 
>> >> >>>video
>> >> >>>doesn't actually exist as any kind of standard like closed 
>> >> >>>captioning
>> >> >>>does and that it's just shoehorned haphazardly into SAP channels, 
>> >> >>>that
>> >> >>>nobody has actually determined what to describe or how, or that any
>> >> >>>effort to mandate this now can only serve to prevent a universal 
>> >> >>>and
>> >> >>>standardized solution from emerging is irrelevant. Again we have 
>> >> >>>the
>> >> >>>blanket assertion that the NFB opposes what is good and right, is 
>> >> >>>evil
>> >> >>>for doing so, and not one single argument to the contrary is ever
>> >> >>>afforded even a first thought, let alone a second.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>I could go on, at length, but the fact remains that nobody has ever
>> >> >>>swayed John Heim on a single issue, ever, in the history of his 
>> >> >>>presence
>> >> >>>on this list. We are all just illogical, unethical, and he is 
>> >> >>>brutalized
>> >> >>>and attacked from all sides, asking Dave Andrews to sanction anyone 
>> >> >>>who
>> >> >>>bruises his poor, fragile ego. He can dish it out, in spades, in 
>> >> >>>the
>> >> >>>most incendiary language possible, but he can't take his own 
>> >> >>>medicine.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>And more importantly, he won't shut the hell up about any of it. He 
>> >> >>>just
>> >> >>>continues to trash the NFB, and the good people of this list. We 
>> >> >>>have
>> >> >>>not forgotten this, and it should be clear that John is immovable 
>> >> >>>on
>> >> >>>pretty much anything, and that includes a fundamental belief that 
>> >> >>>the NFB
>> >> >>>is harmful to the blind. So then, what is he doing here? And why is 
>> >> >>>he
>> >> >>>permitted to remain, spewing this crap day after day?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>Joseph
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 08:16:28PM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>> >> >>>>Too bad that troll doesn't fall off the face of the earth!
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>Gloria Whipple
>> >> >>>>Corresponding Secretary
>> >> >>>>Inland Empire chapter
>> >> >>>>nfb of WA
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>-----Original Message-----
>> >> >>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> >> >>>>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> >> >>>>On
>> >> >>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>> >> >>>>Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 17:10
>> >> >>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> >> >>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>> >> >>>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>The troll returns to one of his favorite ACB-inspired arguments 
>> >> >>>>about
>> >> >>>>how evil the NFB is. I say again, go away.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>Joseph
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 04:24:42PM -0500, John Heim wrote:
>> >> >>>>>Yet, the NFB would have us ask for help to identify our money.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:21 PM, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>Hi Joseph,
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>Well done! I like what you had to say.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>My prayers go out to you and I hope you get better and I hope 
>> >> >>>>>>you
>> >> >>>>>>are free
>> >> >>>>>>from cancer soon.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>All my best,
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>Gloria Whipple
>> >> >>>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>> >> >>>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>> >> >>>>>>nfb of WA
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>> >> >>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-
>> >> >>>>>> >>>>bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> >> >>>>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>> >> >>>>>>Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 19:01
>> >> >>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> >> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report 
>> >> >>>>>>from
>> >> >>>>>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>Gloria,
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>I think what it boils down to is that language is a powerful 
>> >> >>>>>>thing.
>> >> >>>>>>The words a person uses are less important than the intent 
>> >> >>>>>>behind
>> >> >>>>>>them, but from a choice of certain words over others we can 
>> >> >>>>>>infer an
>> >> >>>>>>intent. I have been battling cancer. This implies something 
>> >> >>>>>>about
>> >> >>>>>>me and my relationship to cancer. I have been living with it, 
>> >> >>>>>>and I
>> >> >>>>>>don't want to be. In fact, I am fighting to make it gone, 
>> >> >>>>>>because
>> >> >>>>>>cancer is a horrible thing.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>Am I fighting blindness? Do I suffer from blindness? Am I forced 
>> >> >>>>>>to
>> >> >>>>>>use alternative techniques? Well yes, I do suffer as a result of
>> >> >>>>>>blindness. Not because of blindness itself per se, but because 
>> >> >>>>>>of
>> >> >>>>>>the reaction of others to it who are not blind (and a few who 
>> >> >>>>>>are,
>> >> >>>>>>sadly).
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>The refusal to be pigeon-holed into this "sad existence" of
>> >> >>>>>>"suffering because of blindness" is precisely the kind of 
>> >> >>>>>>supposed
>> >> >>>>>>"unethical" behavior the NFB engages in by spreading our 
>> >> >>>>>>philosophy.
>> >> >>>>>>It is akin to those during the 60s arguing against the notion 
>> >> >>>>>>that
>> >> >>>>>>they were afflicted somehow with being black. Blindness is a bad
>> >> >>>>>>thing only if you make it be so, and we refuse to make it so for
>> >> >>>>>>ourselves. Moreover, we refuse to allow others to force us into 
>> >> >>>>>>that
>> >> >>>>>>role.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>Those who would disparage our efforts to do so are not our 
>> >> >>>>>>friends,
>> >> >>>>>>just as those who would have you look down upon a man of color
>> >> >>>>>>because his skin was darker than, say, mine is. Is he somehow 
>> >> >>>>>>worse
>> >> >>>>>>of because of that? Is he lessened as a man or as a person? Does 
>> >> >>>>>>he
>> >> >>>>>>deserve something less, or for that matter anything more, than 
>> >> >>>>>>any
>> >> >>>>>>other person simply because of the color of his skin? Most today
>> >> >>>>>>would say out of hand that he should have the same opportunities
>> >> >>>>>>anyone would have. No more, but certainly no less!
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>The blind deserve the same equality that our more 
>> >> >>>>>>sunburn-resistant
>> >> >>>>>>brothers demanded more than forty years ago. In just one 
>> >> >>>>>>generation
>> >> >>>>>>we have gone from a person of color being denied the use of a
>> >> >>>>>>drinking fountain to electing him to the United States 
>> >> >>>>>>presidency.
>> >> >>>>>>If there remains racial inequality, it cannot be because of the 
>> >> >>>>>>color
>> >> >>>>>>of a person's skin anymore. Some individuals may yet harbor such
>> >> >>>>>>attitudes (and I recently observed some of those people in a 
>> >> >>>>>>public
>> >> >>>>>>display, sadly), but society rejects such people as undesirable 
>> >> >>>>>>when
>> >> >>>>>>they are exposed. (And believe me, we are exposing them all over
>> >> >>>>>>YouTube, since the local media won't even report it.)
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>But what about the blind? The same society who refuses to allow 
>> >> >>>>>>a
>> >> >>>>>>black man to be treated as a second class citizen openly 
>> >> >>>>>>condones it
>> >> >>>>>>when a blind man is treated likewise. Disability is one of only 
>> >> >>>>>>two
>> >> >>>>>>acceptable areas of discrimination that remain in this country. 
>> >> >>>>>>(The
>> >> >>>>>>other is so far removed from topical for this list that I won't
>> >> >>>>>>discuss it here, much to Dave's relief.)
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>We cannot continue to meekly request that we be treated as first
>> >> >>>>>>class citizens. It didn't work in the 1940s, and it hasn't 
>> >> >>>>>>worked
>> >> >>>>>>yet. Only by refusing to be anything less will we finally 
>> >> >>>>>>achieve
>> >> >>>>>>that. Unfortunately, that means getting a bit uppity over 
>> >> >>>>>>language
>> >> >>>>>>that paints us into a corner, as it were. I'm not here to be 
>> >> >>>>>>pitied
>> >> >>>>>>or someone's inspiration. I'm here because I've got a job to do, 
>> >> >>>>>>and
>> >> >>>>>>within the National Federation of the Blind, that job is to 
>> >> >>>>>>achieve
>> >> >>>>>>for myself and for all of us the basic rights of first class
>> >> >>>>>>citizenship afforded to anyone else in this country today, 
>> >> >>>>>>regardless
>> >> >>>>>>of their skin color, sexual orientation, and a whole host of 
>> >> >>>>>>other
>> >> >>>>>>things.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>I don't expect any more, but I also won't accept any less.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>Joseph
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 09:33:15AM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>James,
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>Thanks for explaining what I wanted to say about this subject.
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>I am glad someone is on my side!
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>Gloria Whipple
>> >> >>>>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>> >> >>>>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>> >> >>>>>>>nfb of WA
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>> >> >>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>> >> >>>>>>info for
>> >> >>>>>>nfb-talk:
>> >> >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/ladygloria%40web
>> >> >>>>ba
>> >> >>>>>>nd.com
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>> >> >>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>> >> >>>>>>info
>> >> >>>>>>for nfb-talk:
>> >> >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.
>> >> >>>>net
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>> >> >>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> >> >>>>>for
>> >> >>>>nfb-talk:
>> >> >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40
>> >> >>>>gmail.com
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>> >> >>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> >> >>>>for
>> >> >>>>nfb-talk:
>> >> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/ladygloria%40webba
>> >> >>>>nd.com
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>> >> >>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
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>> >> >>>>nfb-talk:
>> >> >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>>nfb-talk mailing list
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>> >> >>>for
>> >> >>>nfb-talk:
>> >> >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.net
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>_______________________________________________
>> >> >>nfb-talk mailing list
>> >> >>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
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>> >> >>for
>> >> >>nfb-talk:
>> >> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/satin-bear%40sbcglobal.net
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > nfb-talk mailing list
>> >> > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>> >> > for
>> >> > nfb-talk:
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>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >_______________________________________________
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