[nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from ChairmanGordon Gund

John Heim john at johnheim.net
Mon Apr 25 14:55:15 UTC 2011 

Well, you've never actually changed your mind on anything either, have you 
Joseph? In my opinion, it is truely ironic for you to accuse me of ignoring 
facts that don't agree with my point of view. Lets examine this particular 
point for a second...

In 2006, Judge James Robertson, in a Federal District Court, decided that 
the currency of the United States discriminates against the blind.  Now, 
this is a federal judge, a lawyer, trained to determine exactly this kind of 
legal question, who after examining all the facts presented over a series of 
weeks by both sides, said that our money discriminates against the blind.

Now, are you willing to acknowledge that the ACB was right? That I was 
right? That our money does discriminate against the blind? Or are you going 
to continue to toe the NFB line?

Documentation on Judge Robertson's decision:
http://www.acb.org/press061129.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from 
ChairmanGordon Gund


> Steve,
>
> I suggest you read the archives of this listserve.  One person continues 
> to discuss the same issues, over and over again.  He is not satisfied with 
> the answers he gets (and he ignores any information that does not fit his 
> anti-Federationist agenda).
>
> Removing him is not "censorship", it's troll-hunting.
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 02:05:14AM +0000, S Baker wrote:
>>
>>If the talk board is constantly being censored by a few people, can the 
>>AFB be solicited to have an uncensored board? If everybody agreed on 
>>everything, we wouldn't need a Talk board, we could call it the Agree 
>>Board! PEN discussion is the well spring of ideas and solutions. No one 
>>here, that I've read could have gotten this far if they had chosen 
>>isolation or denied improvements in technology. If you had, you would not 
>>be on the Net.
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>SRBaker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: john at johnheim.net
>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:45:54 -0500
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from 
>>> ChairmanGordon Gund
>>>
>>> Constance, do you have an open mind on this issue? Could anything I say
>>> convince you that I am arguing in good faith? I don't believe so.
>>>
>>> Here are some facts:
>>> 1. I have never reacted in anger to anything said about me on this list
>>> 2. I have never instulted anyone on this list
>>> 3. I just took 3 months where I read but did not respond to the messages 
>>> on
>>> this list.
>>> 4. I provide links and documentation for the things I say on this list.
>>> 5. Its not true that I never agree with anything the NFB does.
>>>
>>> Its true that I have a lot of problems with the policies of the NFB and
>>> those positions have created a great deal of controversy on this list.
>>> That's one of the reasons you think I hever have anything good to say 
>>> about
>>> the NFB, the things we agree on are not controversial.
>>>
>>> So anyway, tell me, what can I do to convince you that I'm arguing in 
>>> good
>>> faith?
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Constance Canode" <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 5:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>> ChairmanGordon Gund
>>>
>>>
>>> >I know I will probably get kicked off of the list for this, but so be 
>>> >it.
>>> >I have an idea. I really believe that John is trying to keep himself in
>>> >the limelight and is in need of attention. Maybe if we totally ignore 
>>> >his
>>> >comments, don't give him any attnetion whatsoever, he will do us all a
>>> >favor and go away. Others have done this in the past and they went away
>>> >also. Just keep hitting the delete key as I have been doing. I am just
>>> >tired of reading this stuff.
>>> >
>>> > I do hope that everyone had a lovely Easter and too much to eat. I 
>>> > know
>>> > we certainly did and we haven't had dessert yet.
>>> > At 05:01 PM 4/24/2011, you wrote:
>>> >>For the record, I never said any of the following things:
>>> >>
>>> >>1. you all want blind people to beg for help from sighted people
>>> >>2. If you oppose a particular modification to the US currency, you 
>>> >>want
>>> >>blind people to be helpless and dependent, .
>>> >>3. John's blanket statement is that we oppose doing this ]accessible
>>> >>money] on every level,
>>> >>4. If you oppose chirping signals, you want blind people to die 
>>> >>crossing
>>> >>streets
>>> >>5. John's blanket assertion is that we oppose them [audible walk 
>>> >>signals]
>>> >>universally
>>> >>
>>> >>I could probably keep going but I think that's enough. I notice, 
>>> >>Joseph,
>>> >>that you never quote me directly. You never respond to what I actually
>>> >>say. This current tirade is the result of a statement I made that the 
>>> >>NFB
>>> >>has said that instead of adding tactile markings to our money, blind
>>> >>people should get sighted assistance to identify their money. That's a
>>> >>fact. Dr. Maurer said exactly that in his testimony before Congress. 
>>> >>From
>>> >>that *factual* statement on my part, you accuse me of saying that the 
>>> >>NFB
>>> >>wants all blind people to be dependent. Well, I simply didn't say 
>>> >>anything
>>> >>of the sort.
>>> >>
>>> >>I can only hope that more rational, fairer memvers of this list will 
>>> >>see
>>> >>how unfair you are being. You keep accusing me of being unwilling to
>>> >>acknowledge that the NFB is in favor of walk signals under some
>>> >>circumstances. Yet I have indeed acknowledged that many times. So
>>> >>continuing to accuse me of that is simply dishonest.
>>> >>
>>> >>Likewise, I never said the NFB is totally opposed to accessible money.
>>> >>You're accusing me of being too bullheaded to retract a statement I 
>>> >>never
>>> >>even made. Its insane.
>>> >>
>>> >>For the record, I don't think the NFB is totally against audible walk
>>> >>signals under all circumstances. And I know the NFB has expressed 
>>> >>support
>>> >>for accessible money at times. I'd really appreciate if you'd stop
>>> >>accusing me of saying otherwise.
>>> >>
>>> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter"
>>> >><carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>> >>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 7:06 AM
>>> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>> >>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>I just get so tired of the same damned unrelenting straw men brought 
>>> >>>up
>>> >>>time and again, anywhere he can wedge these things in, whether they 
>>> >>>make
>>> >>>sense or not. He's not been back two weeks and already we're all
>>> >>>illogical, unethical, and he's back to the straw man about how we all
>>> >>>want blind people to beg for help from sighted people.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>If I have learned one thing from politics, it's that certain parties
>>> >>>always want to re-frame the argument so that either you agree with 
>>> >>>them,
>>> >>>or you are against something that nobody ever would be. Either I am
>>> >>>right, or you support cruelty to kittens! What do kittens have to do
>>> >>>with anything?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>So if you listen to John, if you oppose a particular modification to 
>>> >>>the
>>> >>>US currency, you want blind people to be helpless and dependent, 
>>> >>>despite
>>> >>>the fact that very few are helpless or dependent in this matter 
>>> >>>today,
>>> >>>unless it be by choice. Money identifiers are now $100, and my cell
>>> >>>phone can do it for the huge investment of TWO BUCKS. John and I
>>> >>>basically agree that electronic identifiers are not a suitable 
>>> >>>solution
>>> >>>to the problem, and yet I cannot support his baseless attacks (and
>>> >>>incessant) incendiary claims against the NFB on even this issue. 
>>> >>>Despite
>>> >>>the NFB's involvement in making the currency accessible, John's 
>>> >>>blanket
>>> >>>statement is that we oppose doing this on every level, and in THREE 
>>> >>>YEARS
>>> >>>(or longer, I think) he has yet to accept a single person's claim to 
>>> >>>the
>>> >>>contrary.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>If you oppose chirping signals, you want blind people to die crossing
>>> >>>streets. An outright lie. The NFB opposed these things because the 
>>> >>>data
>>> >>>showed that they drowned out cars resulting in more blind people at 
>>> >>>risk,
>>> >>>not less. Moreover, as of eight or nine years ago, the NFB has been
>>> >>>actively developing a safe replacement for these squawking monsters, 
>>> >>>and
>>> >>>the documented position of the organization is that we support their
>>> >>>installation when they will benefit people. John's blanket assertion 
>>> >>>is
>>> >>>that we oppose them universally. Our own resolutions to the contrary 
>>> >>>are
>>> >>>not evidence, and nobody can prove otherwise to his satisfaction.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>If you oppose blanket mandates for descriptive video without any
>>> >>>consideration of what kind of descriptive video would be useful or in
>>> >>>what context, then you are a monster who wants blind people to be
>>> >>>deprived, uninformed, and miserable. The fact that descriptive video
>>> >>>doesn't actually exist as any kind of standard like closed captioning
>>> >>>does and that it's just shoehorned haphazardly into SAP channels, 
>>> >>>that
>>> >>>nobody has actually determined what to describe or how, or that any
>>> >>>effort to mandate this now can only serve to prevent a universal and
>>> >>>standardized solution from emerging is irrelevant. Again we have the
>>> >>>blanket assertion that the NFB opposes what is good and right, is 
>>> >>>evil
>>> >>>for doing so, and not one single argument to the contrary is ever
>>> >>>afforded even a first thought, let alone a second.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>I could go on, at length, but the fact remains that nobody has ever
>>> >>>swayed John Heim on a single issue, ever, in the history of his 
>>> >>>presence
>>> >>>on this list. We are all just illogical, unethical, and he is 
>>> >>>brutalized
>>> >>>and attacked from all sides, asking Dave Andrews to sanction anyone 
>>> >>>who
>>> >>>bruises his poor, fragile ego. He can dish it out, in spades, in the
>>> >>>most incendiary language possible, but he can't take his own 
>>> >>>medicine.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>And more importantly, he won't shut the hell up about any of it. He 
>>> >>>just
>>> >>>continues to trash the NFB, and the good people of this list. We have
>>> >>>not forgotten this, and it should be clear that John is immovable on
>>> >>>pretty much anything, and that includes a fundamental belief that the 
>>> >>>NFB
>>> >>>is harmful to the blind. So then, what is he doing here? And why is 
>>> >>>he
>>> >>>permitted to remain, spewing this crap day after day?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Joseph
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 08:16:28PM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>> >>>>Too bad that troll doesn't fall off the face of the earth!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Gloria Whipple
>>> >>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>> >>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>> >>>>nfb of WA
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>-----Original Message-----
>>> >>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>> >>>>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >>>>On
>>> >>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>> >>>>Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 17:10
>>> >>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> >>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>> >>>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>The troll returns to one of his favorite ACB-inspired arguments 
>>> >>>>about
>>> >>>>how evil the NFB is. I say again, go away.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Joseph
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 04:24:42PM -0500, John Heim wrote:
>>> >>>>>Yet, the NFB would have us ask for help to identify our money.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:21 PM, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Hi Joseph,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Well done! I like what you had to say.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>My prayers go out to you and I hope you get better and I hope you
>>> >>>>>>are free
>>> >>>>>>from cancer soon.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>All my best,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Gloria Whipple
>>> >>>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>> >>>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>> >>>>>>nfb of WA
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>> >>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-
>>> >>>>>> >>>>bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> >>>>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>> >>>>>>Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 19:01
>>> >>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>> >>>>>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Gloria,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>I think what it boils down to is that language is a powerful 
>>> >>>>>>thing.
>>> >>>>>>The words a person uses are less important than the intent behind
>>> >>>>>>them, but from a choice of certain words over others we can infer 
>>> >>>>>>an
>>> >>>>>>intent. I have been battling cancer. This implies something about
>>> >>>>>>me and my relationship to cancer. I have been living with it, and 
>>> >>>>>>I
>>> >>>>>>don't want to be. In fact, I am fighting to make it gone, because
>>> >>>>>>cancer is a horrible thing.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Am I fighting blindness? Do I suffer from blindness? Am I forced 
>>> >>>>>>to
>>> >>>>>>use alternative techniques? Well yes, I do suffer as a result of
>>> >>>>>>blindness. Not because of blindness itself per se, but because of
>>> >>>>>>the reaction of others to it who are not blind (and a few who are,
>>> >>>>>>sadly).
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>The refusal to be pigeon-holed into this "sad existence" of
>>> >>>>>>"suffering because of blindness" is precisely the kind of supposed
>>> >>>>>>"unethical" behavior the NFB engages in by spreading our 
>>> >>>>>>philosophy.
>>> >>>>>>It is akin to those during the 60s arguing against the notion that
>>> >>>>>>they were afflicted somehow with being black. Blindness is a bad
>>> >>>>>>thing only if you make it be so, and we refuse to make it so for
>>> >>>>>>ourselves. Moreover, we refuse to allow others to force us into 
>>> >>>>>>that
>>> >>>>>>role.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Those who would disparage our efforts to do so are not our 
>>> >>>>>>friends,
>>> >>>>>>just as those who would have you look down upon a man of color
>>> >>>>>>because his skin was darker than, say, mine is. Is he somehow 
>>> >>>>>>worse
>>> >>>>>>of because of that? Is he lessened as a man or as a person? Does 
>>> >>>>>>he
>>> >>>>>>deserve something less, or for that matter anything more, than any
>>> >>>>>>other person simply because of the color of his skin? Most today
>>> >>>>>>would say out of hand that he should have the same opportunities
>>> >>>>>>anyone would have. No more, but certainly no less!
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>The blind deserve the same equality that our more 
>>> >>>>>>sunburn-resistant
>>> >>>>>>brothers demanded more than forty years ago. In just one 
>>> >>>>>>generation
>>> >>>>>>we have gone from a person of color being denied the use of a
>>> >>>>>>drinking fountain to electing him to the United States presidency.
>>> >>>>>>If there remains racial inequality, it cannot be because of the 
>>> >>>>>>color
>>> >>>>>>of a person's skin anymore. Some individuals may yet harbor such
>>> >>>>>>attitudes (and I recently observed some of those people in a 
>>> >>>>>>public
>>> >>>>>>display, sadly), but society rejects such people as undesirable 
>>> >>>>>>when
>>> >>>>>>they are exposed. (And believe me, we are exposing them all over
>>> >>>>>>YouTube, since the local media won't even report it.)
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>But what about the blind? The same society who refuses to allow a
>>> >>>>>>black man to be treated as a second class citizen openly condones 
>>> >>>>>>it
>>> >>>>>>when a blind man is treated likewise. Disability is one of only 
>>> >>>>>>two
>>> >>>>>>acceptable areas of discrimination that remain in this country. 
>>> >>>>>>(The
>>> >>>>>>other is so far removed from topical for this list that I won't
>>> >>>>>>discuss it here, much to Dave's relief.)
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>We cannot continue to meekly request that we be treated as first
>>> >>>>>>class citizens. It didn't work in the 1940s, and it hasn't worked
>>> >>>>>>yet. Only by refusing to be anything less will we finally achieve
>>> >>>>>>that. Unfortunately, that means getting a bit uppity over language
>>> >>>>>>that paints us into a corner, as it were. I'm not here to be 
>>> >>>>>>pitied
>>> >>>>>>or someone's inspiration. I'm here because I've got a job to do, 
>>> >>>>>>and
>>> >>>>>>within the National Federation of the Blind, that job is to 
>>> >>>>>>achieve
>>> >>>>>>for myself and for all of us the basic rights of first class
>>> >>>>>>citizenship afforded to anyone else in this country today, 
>>> >>>>>>regardless
>>> >>>>>>of their skin color, sexual orientation, and a whole host of other
>>> >>>>>>things.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>I don't expect any more, but I also won't accept any less.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>Joseph
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 09:33:15AM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>James,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>Thanks for explaining what I wanted to say about this subject.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>I am glad someone is on my side!
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>Gloria Whipple
>>> >>>>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>> >>>>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>> >>>>>>>nfb of WA
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>> >>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> >>>>>>for
>>> >>>>>>nfb-talk:
>>> >>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/ladygloria%40web
>>> >>>>ba
>>> >>>>>>nd.com
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>net
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>_______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
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