[nfb-talk] John Hime- A different option!
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Mon Apr 25 21:53:30 UTC 2011
John and everyone,
First, I am not functioning as moderator or in any official capacity, so feel free to ignore me. <smile> I occasionally have helped Dave Andrews out with list
support, and still do when asked, but that should add no weight to what I am saying.
John, hopefully you have seen over time that I have both argued with you and sometimes risen to your defense. My feeling has consistently been that
whether I disagreed with you or not, I felt that your intentions have generally been to exchange ideas. The fact that I have not changed your mind doesn't
really bother me because you have not changed my mind, either. This particular exchange bothers me, though, for a number of reasons, and it seems to me
that it is time for everyone to just cool down a bit, including you. I do not like to read people clammering to eliminate an opinion they don't like to hear by
having you removed from the list. Whether we like it or not, we live in a world where humans don't see everything the same way, and we need to see our
ideas within the context of all ideas. .
Nevertheless, I have to say that I find it mystifying, and even a little suspicious, that you would bring back the points in your note below as though they have
never been discussed before. I also question whether any of us can truly just declare their positions as rational. I doubt anybody ever takes an irrational
position. However, I suppose that I probably better let the record show that all my positions are also rational and moderate. Now that is out of the way,
What do you expect to achieve by raising these specific points that are largely connected to specific events that have passed. Even if you changed minds,
the events would still stand. It is hard to believe that you seriously want rational discussion because a number of us have taken the time to at least try to get
you to see there might be two sides. There is nothing that I feel I can say that you have not heard several times from me personally already over the past
several years. I just don't think there is anything to be gained going down these same paths for either of us and I am coming to the conclusion that you may
may have other motives to be repeatedly raising these issues as if they have never been discussed. How many messages have you sent to ACB lists, for
example, questioning why they chose to take legal action regarding accessible currency rather than working with us to achieve change based upon the
resolution we had passed before their legal action? I'd be surprised if you even new of our resolution at the time.
I don't think your positions are crazy, but I expect you to give me the same consideration. Reasonable people can view the same world in different ways.
There comes a point when it doesn't make sense to discuss the same old points as if they have not been discussed before. What do you hope to gain with
these particular points except to get people to react in anger. A list like this can't function in that way. Let's just move on this time. I am glad to try to
answer any sincere questions you have if you want to write to me directly.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 09:42:26 -0500, John Heim wrote:
>Joseph, I beg you to sit back and think about what you are saying... I
>remain unconvinced that the NFB should have organized protests against
>audible walk signals, and that they should have fought the ACB on its
>lawsuit on accessible money, and that the NFB should have sided with TV and
>movie producers on DVS. Why is that so crazy?
>In reality, what is crazy that you and so many other people are so angry
>with me for continuing to believe these things which I have every reason to
>think represent the mainstream thinking by blind Americans.
>These are simply moderate, rational positions I'm taking. I haven't said
>anything crazy I haven't been rude to anyone, and I haven't made any
>ssignificant factual errors.
>You need to learn some tolerance for the views of people who disagree with
>you.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:27 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] John Hime- A different option!
>> Show me ONE SINGLE MESSAGE at any time in all the years John has been on
>> this listserve that he has EVER considered seriously a view opposed to his
>> own. John Heim is a liar who spreads blatant disinformation about the
>> Federation in the guise of "logical debate", in which his views are
>> UNIVERSALLY "logical", "rational", and "well considered". If you disagree
>> with him, you are "unethical", "irrational", "illogical", "a bully", or
>> "offensive".
>>
>> You cannot find one single counter-example. I've looked, multiple times,
>> because he's been at this for literally years. It is only in the past
>> several months or so that I have concluded that if not one single fact has
>> been presented to this man that he would deign to consider valid, that
>> it's time he go elsewhere.
>>
>> John does not have a right to be on this list any more than I do. This is
>> NFB-Talk, not NFB-Bash.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 02:21:04AM +0000, S Baker wrote:
>>>
>>>Why all the vitriol. Some sound like the Salem Witch Trials, burn him at
>>>the stake. An alternative approach would be to read all posts, consider
>>>what it has to say, than accept or reject it based upon its merit. To
>>>reject thoughts or different ideas out of hand, is short sighted and
>>>stifles mental growth.
>>>Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>SRBaker
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: jajkaldrich at gmail.com
>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:27:46 -0600
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: John Hime
>>>>
>>>> Hi Joseph and all!
>>>>
>>>> Yes! You yourself and anyone else on this list can do something about
>>>> this!
>>>> The best friend you have is on your keyboard! It is called the delete
>>>> key.
>>>> Whenever you encounter a John Hime message, delete it, don't give it any
>>>> attention! Don't waste your time! Go onto those persons who truly value
>>>> what you have to say and will engage in an intelligent dialogue! If
>>>> everyone does this, he might get tired of talking to himself or in
>>>> reality
>>>> David Andrews who monitors the list as he must and he then will deal
>>>> with
>>>> these empty diatribes of his! You're calling him a troll suddenly
>>>> brought
>>>> about fifteen or so posts from him! It seems whenever I see his posts,
>>>> there ar at least fifteen of them not one, two or three! People who join
>>>> the ACB-l list are limited to five or six posts per day so he comes over
>>>> here to send his 15 or more posts! I don't know what his mission is over
>>>> here! Maybe he thinks he is some kind of proffit who knows more than
>>>> anybody else about blindness. Or, he gets his jollies and gets amunition
>>>> to
>>>> forward to whichever list he forwards stuff too to show how badly
>>>> behaved we
>>>> are! Don't fall for this! Most people who think alike gather together
>>>> for
>>>> mutual support and learning! He doesn't wish to learn! He doesn't take
>>>> time to read our literature wich is abundantly available! Therefore,
>>>> let's
>>>> exercise that delete key! It works for anyone else too that you don't
>>>> particularly care for! I for one have been ignored by the ACB-L list so
>>>> why
>>>> not do the same here! Until he or anyone else for that matter can't
>>>> learn
>>>> to disagree agreeably, they should be ignored! The man isn't normal! He
>>>> merely wishes to cause discord, not harmony! He isn't worth your time!
>>>>
>>>> If you don't like my post, delete it! Get it? Now let's exercise that
>>>> delete key!
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 6:06 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>>> ChairmanGordon Gund
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >I just get so tired of the same damned unrelenting straw men brought up
>>>> >time and again, anywhere he can wedge these things in, whether they
>>>> >make
>>>> >sense or not. He's not been back two weeks and already we're all
>>>> >illogical, unethical, and he's back to the straw man about how we all
>>>> >want
>>>> >blind people to beg for help from sighted people.
>>>> >
>>>> > If I have learned one thing from politics, it's that certain parties
>>>> > always want to re-frame the argument so that either you agree with
>>>> > them,
>>>> > or you are against something that nobody ever would be. Either I am
>>>> > right, or you support cruelty to kittens! What do kittens have to do
>>>> > with
>>>> > anything?
>>>> >
>>>> > So if you listen to John, if you oppose a particular modification to
>>>> > the
>>>> > US currency, you want blind people to be helpless and dependent,
>>>> > despite
>>>> > the fact that very few are helpless or dependent in this matter today,
>>>> > unless it be by choice. Money identifiers are now $100, and my cell
>>>> > phone
>>>> > can do it for the huge investment of TWO BUCKS. John and I basically
>>>> > agree that electronic identifiers are not a suitable solution to the
>>>> > problem, and yet I cannot support his baseless attacks (and incessant)
>>>> > incendiary claims against the NFB on even this issue. Despite the
>>>> > NFB's
>>>> > involvement in making the currency accessible, John's blanket
>>>> > statement is
>>>> > that we oppose doing this on every level, and in THREE YEARS (or
>>>> > longer, I
>>>> > think) he has yet to accept a single person's claim to the contrary.
>>>> >
>>>> > If you oppose chirping signals, you want blind people to die crossing
>>>> > streets. An outright lie. The NFB opposed these things because the
>>>> > data
>>>> > showed that they drowned out cars resulting in more blind people at
>>>> > risk,
>>>> > not less. Moreover, as of eight or nine years ago, the NFB has been
>>>> > actively developing a safe replacement for these squawking monsters,
>>>> > and
>>>> > the documented position of the organization is that we support their
>>>> > installation when they will benefit people. John's blanket assertion
>>>> > is
>>>> > that we oppose them universally. Our own resolutions to the contrary
>>>> > are
>>>> > not evidence, and nobody can prove otherwise to his satisfaction.
>>>> >
>>>> > If you oppose blanket mandates for descriptive video without any
>>>> > consideration of what kind of descriptive video would be useful or in
>>>> > what
>>>> > context, then you are a monster who wants blind people to be deprived,
>>>> > uninformed, and miserable. The fact that descriptive video doesn't
>>>> > actually exist as any kind of standard like closed captioning does and
>>>> > that it's just shoehorned haphazardly into SAP channels, that nobody
>>>> > has
>>>> > actually determined what to describe or how, or that any effort to
>>>> > mandate
>>>> > this now can only serve to prevent a universal and standardized
>>>> > solution
>>>> > from emerging is irrelevant. Again we have the blanket assertion that
>>>> > the
>>>> > NFB opposes what is good and right, is evil for doing so, and not one
>>>> > single argument to the contrary is ever afforded even a first thought,
>>>> > let
>>>> > alone a second.
>>>> >
>>>> > I could go on, at length, but the fact remains that nobody has ever
>>>> > swayed
>>>> > John Heim on a single issue, ever, in the history of his presence on
>>>> > this
>>>> > list. We are all just illogical, unethical, and he is brutalized and
>>>> > attacked from all sides, asking Dave Andrews to sanction anyone who
>>>> > bruises his poor, fragile ego. He can dish it out, in spades, in the
>>>> > most
>>>> > incendiary language possible, but he can't take his own medicine.
>>>> >
>>>> > And more importantly, he won't shut the hell up about any of it. He
>>>> > just
>>>> > continues to trash the NFB, and the good people of this list. We have
>>>> > not
>>>> > forgotten this, and it should be clear that John is immovable on
>>>> > pretty
>>>> > much anything, and that includes a fundamental belief that the NFB is
>>>> > harmful to the blind. So then, what is he doing here? And why is he
>>>> > permitted to remain, spewing this crap day after day?
>>>> >
>>>> > Joseph
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 08:16:28PM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>> >>Too bad that troll doesn't fall off the face of the earth!
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Gloria Whipple
>>>> >>Corresponding Secretary
>>>> >>Inland Empire chapter
>>>> >>nfb of WA
>>>> >>
>>>> >>-----Original Message-----
>>>> >>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> >>On
>>>> >>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>>> >>Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 17:10
>>>> >>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>>> >>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The troll returns to one of his favorite ACB-inspired arguments about
>>>> >>how evil the NFB is. I say again, go away.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Joseph
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 04:24:42PM -0500, John Heim wrote:
>>>> >>>Yet, the NFB would have us ask for help to identify our money.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:21 PM, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>Hi Joseph,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Well done! I like what you had to say.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>My prayers go out to you and I hope you get better and I hope you
>>>> >>>>are free
>>>> >>>>from cancer soon.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>All my best,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Gloria Whipple
>>>> >>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>>> >>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>>> >>>>nfb of WA
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>> >>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-
>>>> >>>>bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> >>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>>> >>>>Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 19:01
>>>> >>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> >>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] FW: {Disarmed} FW: A personal report from
>>>> >>>>ChairmanGordon Gund
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Gloria,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>I think what it boils down to is that language is a powerful thing.
>>>> >>>>The words a person uses are less important than the intent behind
>>>> >>>>them, but from a choice of certain words over others we can infer an
>>>> >>>>intent. I have been battling cancer. This implies something about
>>>> >>>>me and my relationship to cancer. I have been living with it, and I
>>>> >>>>don't want to be. In fact, I am fighting to make it gone, because
>>>> >>>>cancer is a horrible thing.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Am I fighting blindness? Do I suffer from blindness? Am I forced to
>>>> >>>>use alternative techniques? Well yes, I do suffer as a result of
>>>> >>>>blindness. Not because of blindness itself per se, but because of
>>>> >>>>the reaction of others to it who are not blind (and a few who are,
>>>> >>>>sadly).
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>The refusal to be pigeon-holed into this "sad existence" of
>>>> >>>>"suffering because of blindness" is precisely the kind of supposed
>>>> >>>>"unethical" behavior the NFB engages in by spreading our philosophy.
>>>> >>>>It is akin to those during the 60s arguing against the notion that
>>>> >>>>they were afflicted somehow with being black. Blindness is a bad
>>>> >>>>thing only if you make it be so, and we refuse to make it so for
>>>> >>>>ourselves. Moreover, we refuse to allow others to force us into that
>>>> >>>>role.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Those who would disparage our efforts to do so are not our friends,
>>>> >>>>just as those who would have you look down upon a man of color
>>>> >>>>because his skin was darker than, say, mine is. Is he somehow worse
>>>> >>>>of because of that? Is he lessened as a man or as a person? Does he
>>>> >>>>deserve something less, or for that matter anything more, than any
>>>> >>>>other person simply because of the color of his skin? Most today
>>>> >>>>would say out of hand that he should have the same opportunities
>>>> >>>>anyone would have. No more, but certainly no less!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>The blind deserve the same equality that our more sunburn-resistant
>>>> >>>>brothers demanded more than forty years ago. In just one generation
>>>> >>>>we have gone from a person of color being denied the use of a
>>>> >>>>drinking fountain to electing him to the United States presidency.
>>>> >>>>If there remains racial inequality, it cannot be because of the
>>>> >>>>color
>>>> >>>>of a person's skin anymore. Some individuals may yet harbor such
>>>> >>>>attitudes (and I recently observed some of those people in a public
>>>> >>>>display, sadly), but society rejects such people as undesirable when
>>>> >>>>they are exposed. (And believe me, we are exposing them all over
>>>> >>>>YouTube, since the local media won't even report it.)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>But what about the blind? The same society who refuses to allow a
>>>> >>>>black man to be treated as a second class citizen openly condones it
>>>> >>>>when a blind man is treated likewise. Disability is one of only two
>>>> >>>>acceptable areas of discrimination that remain in this country. (The
>>>> >>>>other is so far removed from topical for this list that I won't
>>>> >>>>discuss it here, much to Dave's relief.)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>We cannot continue to meekly request that we be treated as first
>>>> >>>>class citizens. It didn't work in the 1940s, and it hasn't worked
>>>> >>>>yet. Only by refusing to be anything less will we finally achieve
>>>> >>>>that. Unfortunately, that means getting a bit uppity over language
>>>> >>>>that paints us into a corner, as it were. I'm not here to be pitied
>>>> >>>>or someone's inspiration. I'm here because I've got a job to do, and
>>>> >>>>within the National Federation of the Blind, that job is to achieve
>>>> >>>>for myself and for all of us the basic rights of first class
>>>> >>>>citizenship afforded to anyone else in this country today,
>>>> >>>>regardless
>>>> >>>>of their skin color, sexual orientation, and a whole host of other
>>>> >>>>things.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>I don't expect any more, but I also won't accept any less.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Joseph
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 09:33:15AM -0700, Gloria Whipple wrote:
>>>> >>>>>James,
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>Thanks for explaining what I wanted to say about this subject.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>I am glad someone is on my side!
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>Gloria Whipple
>>>> >>>>>Corresponding Secretary
>>>> >>>>>Inland Empire chapter
>>>> >>>>>nfb of WA
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>> >>ba
>>>> >>>>nd.com
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>> >>net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
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