[nfb-talk] nfb-talk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 56

Fri Aug 26 22:21:00 UTC 2011

This was discussed: It was not permitted without punitive scanning 
procedure.  The cane WAS scanned, and at no time was there any 
objection to having the cane scanned.

The objection was to being forced to use a sighted guide.  Failure to 
accept this got me punitive screening procedures to assert the 
"authoritah" of the TSA officer.

The TSA has ignored my complaint outright.  They did not even bother 
to send me an acknowledgment letter, as the TSA website says they 
will do within a given time frame.

Joseph - KF7QZC

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 03:47:42PM -0500, Bryce Samuelson wrote:
>Personally, I have enough sight to go through without a hitch, but if you
>absolutely need or have to have your cane when going through the checkpoint,
>just tell them that you need it to go through and that they can scan it
>after you're through and don't leave until they've done so.  I've done it
>both ways and have seen it done the way I described.  It generally works and
>it's generally not a huge delay (especially since you need to get your
>things off the conveyor anyway) so let them scan your cane.  After all,
>that's a common occurrence and there really isn't any "discrimination" that
>I know of.  Just figure out (or have them or a friend or whomever help you
>figure out) what works best for you and go with it.
>Bryce
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of nfb-talk-request at nfbnet.org
>Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 12:00 PM
>To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>Subject: nfb-talk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 56
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>Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: TSA discrimination in Orlando (ckrugman at sbcglobal.net)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 23:43:49 -0700
>From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>Message-ID: <D8DDC169C69941248ABFFDDE90038B84 at spike>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
>        reply-type=response
>
>Actually, when I go through the detector I have handed off the cane or put
>it on to the conveyor and walked through it. Perhaps I don't consider this a
>problem as I have enough travel vision mostly light and object perception
>where this is a not an issue. Unless it is obvious that a person wanting to
>offer to guide me is obviously putting me in danger I personally don't have
>a need to protest.
>Chuck
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 2:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>
>
>> Chuck,
>> But I bet you are permitted to go through the detector alone.
>> Joseph was guided through and he wanted to walk through alone or alone
>> with his cane.
>> He said TSA rules allow you to pass through with your cane and if this
>> is the case, he should have been allowed the cane rather than being
>> forced to take sighted guide.
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 3:04 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>
>> I think that dignity is a relative term here. I would have to agree
>> with the position that there are much more important battles to go
>> through every day.
>> I frequently have to go through security checkpoints not only in
>> airports but each time I go in to a courthouse and not only do I give
>> up my cane but warn the TSA official or deputy that it will set it
>> off. While we may want to rant and rave about indignities we do need
>> to fit in to the sighted world if we want the dignity that you are so
>> concerned about.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 10:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>
>>
>>> So then I guess the TSA agent was right, if you're a fair representative.
>>> No other blind person insisted upon his rights clearly stated in TSA
>>> regulations.
>>>
>>> An attack on the dignity of the blind is an attack on every single one of
>>> us.  If that's not your fight, then I am sorry.  If it is not the
>>> National Federation of the Blind's fight, then we have become as cowardly
>>> as the ACB and the HELP committee can safely ignore our little request
>>> that blind people be paid a fair wage for fair work, because we lack the
>>> backbone to defend what little we have won, let alone fight for more
>>> dignity.
>>>
>>> It isn't about how far I could walk with or without a cane.  It is about
>>> it being respectable to be blind.  It is about defending a law that
>>> Federationists fought and went to jail trying to win for all of us,
>>> whether you personally give a damn or not.  This was an attack on the
>>> dignity of the blind, outright, and it was an attack on every single one
>>> of us.
>>>
>>> I've pointed out that you don't feel any need or desire to defend the
>>> rights the Federation fought so hard to attain for you.  If you feel
>>> insulted by that, maybe you need to ask yourself what your life would be
>>> right now if the Federation hadn't been there to fight for the rights you
>>> have today, including those you casually disregard as not personally
>>> significant.
>>>
>>> That would be equivalent to me saying that discrimination against guide
>>> dogs isn?t my fight because I use a cane.  It IS my fight, because I am a
>>> Federationist and an attack on the rights of any of us as blind citizens
>>> is an attack on every single one of us.  I don?t know about anybody else,
>>> especially after reading some of the cowardly responses on this list, but
>>> that is what I go to the matt for, every single time, whether it happens
>>> to me or not.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:09:16AM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>>Hi Joe,
>>>>
>>>>You're assuming I feel intimidated , and this isn't the case at all.
>>>>However, I will say that as someone who travels for work, travels for
>>>>fun,
>>>>and travels often, I'm inclined to smile and nod and just let the TSA
>>>>guys
>>>>have their way rather than risk my livelihood and my lifestyle over
>>>>something that is very low on my list of issues.  Using my cane to go
>>>>through the machine is likely to set it off, as it has metal on the tip,
>>>>the
>>>>chain, and sometimes things attached to the chain.  To me, putting my
>>>>cane
>>>>on the belt and walking maybe five to ten steps at most and getting my
>>>>cane
>>>>on the other side is not taxing my skills, my patience, or my dignity.
>>>>There are plenty of other things that do, however, but this isn't one of
>>>>them.
>>>>
>>>>I've said that it sure sounds like you got rotten treatment at the hands
>>>>of
>>>>the TSA guys, and I think you should pursue a complaint, but don't put
>>>>words
>>>>in my mouth, impune my integrity, or frankly insult me because this just
>>>>isn't my fight.  Do I like the brutalizing we all get at the security
>>>>check
>>>>points?  Of course not, but this is an issue way bigger than all of us
>>>>here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Airports are full of idiots who know nothing about blindness -- have you
>>>>had
>>>>a sky cap assist you lately?  Talk about insulting!  A gate agent
>>>>recently
>>>>accused my wife of faking being blind because she was such a competent
>>>>traveler.  Now that's something I'm willing to go to the matt over...
>>>>
>>>>Best of luck,
>>>>
>>>>Brian M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>>>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:29 PM
>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>
>>>>So what you're saying, Brian, is that you're willing to be intimidated
>>>>into
>>>>giving up your rights, because the big boogeyman TSA agents can do too
>>>>much
>>>>to you if you don't do exactly what they say, whether it's illegal or
>>>>flies
>>>>in the face of every battle we have fought long and hard for as an
>>>>organization?
>>>>
>>>>Just want to be sure I understand here.  Because the TSA said that of
>>>>nearly
>>>>3,000 blind people going through the airport, I'm the only one who
>>>>insisted
>>>>that I had a right NOT to be led around like a child, denied the use of
>>>>my
>>>>cane for travel.
>>>>
>>>>Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 09:07:58PM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>>>Hi Peter,
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't think anyone feels that Joe was treated well, or with the
>>>>>respect he deserves, but security checks are a serious hassle and a
>>>>>drag for everyone, and indignities abound.  I think solidarity across
>>>>>the board, and not just for blind people, is in order.
>>>>>
>>>>>I merely say that for me using my cane to walk a few feet through the
>>>>>metal detector is not worth fighting over -- the last thing I need is
>>>>>to end up on a "no fly" list.  The point is, you are exactly right that
>>>>>the blind have been fighting, and getting arrested, and going to jail,
>>>>>for years over our right to have our mobility devices, and we've won
>>>>>some, and lost many others.  I think we need to figure out where to
>>>>>focus our energies to maximize independence while recognizing that we
>>>>>face a very difficult environment in which to make our arguments when it
>>>>comes to security.
>>>>>
>>>>>Heck, we still don't, and maybe never will, have the right to sit in
>>>>>the emergency row -- now that makes me feel more like a child than does
>>>>>a quick guide through the magnetometer .
>>>>>
>>>>>Not long ago Dr. Fred Schoeder was denied the right to fly to a meeting
>>>>>because he was traveling alone... Granted, this was not in the United
>>>>>States, but that kind of right of freedom of movement, is something I'm
>>>>>willing to lie down on the tarmac for and go to jail.... Maybe not a
>>>>>jail in Thailand, though *smile*
>>>>>
>>>>>In any case, I don't think Alicia, or any of us, are trying to miminize
>>>>>the fight we all face.
>>>>>
>>>>>Brian M
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:30 AM
>>>>>To: Alicia Richards; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>
>>>>>Hello Alicia and everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>The next time you pass through a TSA Check point we'll cut both of your
>>>>>feet off and demand that you walk through like anyone else. Blind
>>>>>people have fought long and hard to be allowed to keep their canes and
>>>>>dogs with them at all times while passing through TSA check points and
>>>>>on
>>>>planes themselves.
>>>>>Blind people were arrested and went to jail to insure these rights are
>>>>>protected and we don't need our own people telling us that it's not a
>>>>>big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter Donahue who along with Mary took their last flight ever on a
>>>>>commercial airliner and can look forward to avoiding TSA screeners in
>>>>>the future!
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Alicia Richards" <alicianfb at gmail.com>
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:37 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree with Mike and others here.  Yes, the TSA has been given too
>>>>>much power.  It's shameful that they can perform such invasive
>>>>>patdowns, violating one's personal space and dignity.  but as Ryan
>>>>>said, that's not a blindness issue: they can do that to anyone.  And,
>>>>>I've never understood people's issue with giving up their cane for 30
>>>>>seconds, taking someone's hand to walk five steps through the security
>>>>>check, and then have their cane handed right back to them.  I question
>>>>>someone's mobility training if they are unable to walk five steps
>>>>>without their cane, and also can't help but wonder if they're
>>>>>exhibiting what I believe was once called, "rebellious independence,"
>>>>>by refusing to take the hand or arm of a TSA official for that very
>>>>>brief time.  But to each their own.  Joseph, I'll be curious if you get
>>>>>a
>>>>reply from Scott LaBarre about this?
>>>>>
>>>>>Alicia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>>signature database 6282 (20110710) __________
>>>>>
>>>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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