[nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discrimination inOrlando
Sherri
flmom2006 at gmail.com
Wed Jul 13 14:27:20 UTC 2011
Ray, I completely agree with what you said. Until an official declaration is
given by the Federation--until Joseph asks for help and an official policy
is stated, he cannot say the Federation is against him. I am one of those
people who takes the easy way out and if I am traveling with my cane, give
it up for that walk through the metal detector. Perhaps that is not standing
up for my rights--I don't know, but that is what I choose to do and we all
have choices. I hope Joseph that your situation is resolved in a
satisfactory manner for you. Take care.
Sherri
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:21 AM
Subject: [nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discrimination
inOrlando
> Until now, I have deliberately stayed out of this thread. I wanted to see
> if cooler heads would prevail. What seems to have happened is this.
> Joseph, I wanted to say this to you openly on the list because I want it
> thoroughly understood where I'm coming from. On the face of it, it would
> appear, based on your story, that your rights as a blind person, (and a
> federationist also), were violated. Clearly, and without doubt, your
> rights were indeed violated. There is no debate about that; and, it seems
> to me that everybody on the list pretty much agrees with you on that; and,
> perhaps, to that extent, shares your own outrage. The debate, it seems to
> me, is this. Should this be a matter for the federation. Clearly, in
> your opinion, the answer seems to be and ought to be "yes". However,
> there are some on this list, (a federation leader or two among them), who
> hold the view that, though much wrong was done you, it is not necessarily
> a federation matter. At this point, perhaps in the impulsive heat and
> freshness of your anger, you then attribute the contrary opinion to yours
> on this list upon the part of some as being the "official" position of the
> National Federation of the Blind merely because such contrary opinion has
> been expressed by one or more federation leaders. Therefore, in your
> anger, (refreshed by such contrary opinions), you now view the federation
> as being against you; and, you feel that most everyone on this list is
> against you. Doubtless, in your pain and anger, you say to yourself, "IF
> a federation leader is going to speak against me, then, surely, this
> represents the official opinion of the federation; and, therefore, it's
> useless to officially ask the federation for help because a leader has
> spoken against me and his position is the official position of the
> federation. IF this is the case, blast the whole thing! I'm going on my
> own and blast what the Federation says!".
>
> Joseph, let me remind you of something. The National Federation has NOT,
> (I repeat and emphasize NOT), taken an "official" position against your
> case or even for it. Let us all recall this. The only thing which has
> happened here is that You, Joseph, put to us your experiences at the
> airport, (which, it should go without saying), were very bad and frankly
> unnecessary. Some discussion was had about the matter. Some federation
> leaders who just happened to be on this list contributed their personal
> opinions regarding this. However, it's just as important to remember what
> DID, NOT, HAPPEN. The National Federation of the Blind did NOT formally
> refuse to aid you. The organization did not do so.
>
> Now, the last of my remarks are directed to the rest of us. There is no
> doubt, in my mind at least, that most of us here feel that Joseph was
> wronged. We're all with him on that. Some of us posit that he should
> have been allowed to keep his cane; while, others of us, myself included,
> feel that he could have done without it for the very short walk through
> what is essentially a straight line. So, who is right and who is wrong?
> I posit that this is a matter we each need to determine for ourselves.
> Some of us will feel one way, some of us another. This is an extremely
> delicate balancing act which, if we are all honest with ourselves, we will
> never get right all of the time. Perhaps, as a matter of course, Joseph
> should seek official help from the federation if he feels that there is a
> compelling necessity to obtain it. Only then can he be assured of the
> "official" position of the organization one way or the other. Meantime,
> all we all have are the various opinions of this and any other lists on
> which Joseph is. We should, in my own view, back him as much as we can;
> but, then too, we should not allow human emotion to cloud our judgement
> about such matters. There's all types on this list; and, we are all at
> bering degrees of independence and also at varying degrees of thinking
> about that independence. I suspect that both frankness and some caution
> are what are wanted here.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>
> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>
> Skype name:
> barefootedray
>
> Facebook:
> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E] wrote:
>
>> I do not intend to start up a big stir, but Joseph, what do you have
>> against walking a few steps, straight and then receiving your cane. I
>> have a little sight, but I know I could do it with a blindfold. Its only
>> 5 or 6 steps! You mean you can not walk anywhere in your home, with out
>> your cane? You can even feal the threshold of the entrence, as you walk
>> over it.
>> I do this, with no sighted guide and stay on the other side, until I get
>> my cane back. Coming back, I was also asked to take off my shoes. I was
>> surprised, but did not complain, even though I have medical problems that
>> make it hard to bend over. I wanted to make it through, so I did what I
>> guess everyone else had to do and I made it through.
>> Terry Powers
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: T. Joseph Carter [mailto:carter.tjoseph at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:22 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>
>> I gave them my cane for scanning and asked to have it returned to me so I
>> could travel through the metal detector. I was told that I had to take
>> the agent's arm. I said I was fine with the cane, and that the cane
>> would not set off the metal detector. I was told that I could not do
>> that, even after offering them the copy of their own regulations saying
>> that I could and should.
>>
>> What followed was punitive action taken because I tried to assert my
>> right to travel with a cane, not an arm. You'd think punishment for
>> using a cane rather than a sighted guide is right up the NFB's alley.
>> Apparently though, it's not.
>>
>> I'll be pursuing it on my own. But as Mike so eloquently put it, I'm
>> "not a-gonna win" if I do that. I will do it anyway, though, because it
>> is the right thing to do. We fought for the right to our canes, and if
>> we haven't got the guts to defend that right, then we don't really have
>> it after all.
>>
>> I'll just hope that when I lose, I don't manage to set any new precedents
>> that we don't in fact have a right to our canes. I don't know that I
>> could prevent that going it alone, but several people have made it quite
>> clear that punishment for using a white cane just isn't the NFB's fight.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 05:56:43PM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>> wrote:
>>> Joeseph,
>>> I'm sure there is more to the story; its clear they did extra screening
>>> as a punishment.
>>> But what rights were violated? Where did they insist upon sighted guide?
>>> I thought you gave up your cane for scanning and walked through the
>>> scanner without it?
>>> So where does this sighted guide come in? If you walk five steps
>>> without your cane, it's a straight shot, and you didn't have a guide.
>>> I never had a guide when going through a security metal detector
>>> whether at a federal building, at the Capitol for a concert, or the
>>> Pentagon.
>>>
>>> I was a little upset when they wanted me to give up my cane last time I
>>> flew as well.
>>> But after I walked through the scanner without setting it off, it was
>>> returned to me promptly.
>>> If you file a complaint with TSA, let us know how it goes.
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: T. Joseph Carter
>>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:28 PM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>
>>> So what you're saying, Brian, is that you're willing to be intimidated
>>> into giving up your rights, because the big boogeyman TSA agents can do
>>> too much to you if you don't do exactly what they say, whether it's
>>> illegal or flies in the face of every battle we have fought long and
>>> hard for as an organization?
>>>
>>> Just want to be sure I understand here. Because the TSA said that of
>>> nearly 3,000 blind people going through the airport, I'm the only one
>>> who insisted that I had a right NOT to be led around like a child,
>>> denied the use of my cane for travel.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 09:07:58PM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>> Hi Peter,
>>>>
>>>> I don't think anyone feels that Joe was treated well, or with the
>>>> respect he deserves, but security checks are a serious hassle and a
>>>> drag for everyone, and indignities abound. I think solidarity across
>>>> the board, and not just for blind people, is in order.
>>>>
>>>> I merely say that for me using my cane to walk a few feet through the
>>>> metal detector is not worth fighting over -- the last thing I need is
>>>> to end up on a "no fly" list. The point is, you are exactly right
>>>> that the blind have been fighting, and getting arrested, and going to
>>>> jail, for years over our right to have our mobility devices, and we've
>>>> won some, and lost many others. I think we need to figure out where
>>>> to focus our energies to maximize independence while recognizing that
>>>> we face a very difficult environment in which to make our arguments
>>>> when it comes to security.
>>>>
>>>> Heck, we still don't, and maybe never will, have the right to sit in
>>>> the emergency row -- now that makes me feel more like a child than
>>>> does a quick guide through the magnetometer .
>>>>
>>>> Not long ago Dr. Fred Schoeder was denied the right to fly to a
>>>> meeting because he was traveling alone... Granted, this was not in the
>>>> United States, but that kind of right of freedom of movement, is
>>>> something I'm willing to lie down on the tarmac for and go to jail....
>>>> Maybe not a jail in Thailand, though *smile*
>>>>
>>>> In any case, I don't think Alicia, or any of us, are trying to
>>>> miminize the fight we all face.
>>>>
>>>> Brian M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:30 AM
>>>> To: Alicia Richards; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>
>>>> Hello Alicia and everyone,
>>>>
>>>> The next time you pass through a TSA Check point we'll cut both of
>>>> your feet off and demand that you walk through like anyone else. Blind
>>>> people have fought long and hard to be allowed to keep their canes and
>>>> dogs with them at all times while passing through TSA check points and
>>>> on planes themselves.
>>>> Blind people were arrested and went to jail to insure these rights are
>>>> protected and we don't need our own people telling us that it's not a
>>>> big deal.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue who along with Mary took their last flight ever on a
>>>> commercial airliner and can look forward to avoiding TSA screeners in
>>>> the future!
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Alicia Richards" <alicianfb at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:37 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Mike and others here. Yes, the TSA has been given too
>>>> much power. It's shameful that they can perform such invasive
>>>> patdowns, violating one's personal space and dignity. but as Ryan
>>>> said, that's not a blindness issue: they can do that to anyone. And,
>>>> I've never understood people's issue with giving up their cane for 30
>>>> seconds, taking someone's hand to walk five steps through the security
>>>> check, and then have their cane handed right back to them. I question
>>>> someone's mobility training if they are unable to walk five steps
>>>> without their cane, and also can't help but wonder if they're
>>>> exhibiting what I believe was once called, "rebellious independence,"
>>>> by refusing to take the hand or arm of a TSA official for that very
>>>> brief time. But to each their own. Joseph, I'll be curious if you
>>>> get a reply from Scott LaBarre about this?
>>>>
>>>> Alicia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 6282 (20110710) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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