[nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discrimination in Orlando

David Andrews dandrews at visi.com
Wed Jul 13 16:51:17 UTC 2011


I think that Ray makes a good point, below.  Each of us should think 
about what we might do in a situation similar to Joseph's, how we 
might act etc.  However, we also may find out that in the moment we 
don't do what we think we would.  You old timers will remember the 
80's and exit row seating.  Sometimes we got assigned to such 
seating, then on the plane the airline would attempt to move us.  How 
would you react, what would you do.  I would like to suggest that we 
should think about these situations in advance, but we shouldn't 
condemn or question others on why they did what they did.  Each of us 
must, and does decide each situation as it plays out, and we may not 
do what we ourselves think we would do.

Hope this all makes sense.

Dave

At 08:21 AM 7/13/2011, you wrote:
>Until now, I have deliberately stayed out of this thread.  I wanted 
>to see if cooler heads would prevail.  What seems to have happened 
>is this.  Joseph, I wanted to say this to you openly on the list 
>because I want it thoroughly understood where I'm coming from.  On 
>the face of it, it would appear, based on your story, that your 
>rights as a blind person, (and a federationist also), were 
>violated.  Clearly, and without doubt, your rights were indeed 
>violated.  There is no debate about that; and, it seems to me that 
>everybody on the list pretty much agrees with you on that; and, 
>perhaps, to that extent, shares your own outrage.  The debate, it 
>seems to me, is this.  Should this be a matter for the 
>federation.  Clearly, in your opinion, the answer seems to be and 
>ought to be "yes".  However, there are some on this list, (a 
>federation leader or two among them), who hold the view that, though 
>much wrong was done you, it is not necessarily a federation 
>matter.  At this point, perhaps in the impulsive heat and freshness 
>of your anger, you then attribute the contrary opinion to yours on 
>this list upon the part of some as being the "official" position of 
>the National Federation of the Blind merely because such contrary 
>opinion has been expressed by one or more federation 
>leaders.  Therefore, in your anger, (refreshed by such contrary 
>opinions), you now view the federation as being against you; and, 
>you feel that most everyone on this list is against you.  Doubtless, 
>in your pain and anger, you say to yourself, "IF a federation leader 
>is going to speak against me, then, surely, this represents the 
>official opinion of the federation; and, therefore, it's useless to 
>officially ask the federation for help because a leader has spoken 
>against me and his position is the official position of the 
>federation.  IF this is the case, blast the whole thing!  I'm going 
>on my own and blast what the Federation says!".
>
>         Joseph, let me remind you of something.  The National 
> Federation has NOT, (I repeat and emphasize NOT), taken an 
> "official" position against your case or even for it.  Let us all 
> recall this.  The only thing which has happened here is that You, 
> Joseph, put to us your experiences at the airport, (which, it 
> should go without saying), were very bad and 
> frankly  unnecessary.  Some discussion was had about the 
> matter.  Some federation leaders who just happened to be on this 
> list contributed their personal opinions regarding this.  However, 
> it's just as important to remember what DID, NOT, HAPPEN.  The 
> National Federation of the Blind did NOT formally refuse to aid 
> you.  The organization did not do so.
>
>         Now, the last of my remarks are directed to the rest of 
> us.  There is no  doubt, in my mind at least, that most of us here 
> feel that Joseph was wronged.  We're all with him on that.  Some of 
> us posit that he should have been allowed to keep his cane; while, 
> others of us, myself included, feel that he could have done without 
> it for the very short walk through what is essentially a straight 
> line.  So, who is right and who is wrong?  I posit that this is a 
> matter we each need to determine for ourselves.  Some of us will 
> feel one way, some of us another.  This is an extremely delicate 
> balancing act which, if we are all honest with ourselves, we will 
> never get right all of the time.  Perhaps, as a matter of course, 
> Joseph should seek official help from the federation if he feels 
> that there is a compelling necessity to obtain it.  Only then can 
> he be assured of the "official" position of the organization one 
> way or the other.  Meantime, all we all have are the various 
> opinions of this and any other lists on which Joseph is.  We 
> should, in my own view, back him as much as we can; but, then too, 
> we should not allow human emotion to cloud our judgement about such 
> matters.  There's all types on this list; and, we are all at bering 
> degrees of independence and also at varying degrees of thinking 
> about that independence.  I suspect that both frankness and some 
> caution are what are wanted here.
>
>Thank you very much.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>
>Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>
>Skype name:
>barefootedray
>
>Facebook:
>facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>
>
>
>On Jul 13, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E] wrote:
>
> > I do not intend to start up a big stir, but Joseph, what do you 
> have against walking a few steps, straight and then receiving your 
> cane.  I have a little sight, but I know I could do it with a 
> blindfold.  Its only 5 or 6 steps!  You mean you can not walk 
> anywhere in your home, with out your cane?  You can even feal the 
> threshold of the entrence, as you walk over it.
> > I do this, with no sighted guide and stay on the other side, 
> until I get my cane back.  Coming back, I was also asked to take 
> off my shoes.  I was surprised, but did not complain, even though I 
> have medical problems that make it hard to bend over.  I wanted to 
> make it through, so I did what I guess everyone else had to do and 
> I made it through.
> > Terry Powers
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: T. Joseph Carter [mailto:carter.tjoseph at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:22 PM
> > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
> >
> > I gave them my cane for scanning and asked to have it returned to 
> me so I could travel through the metal detector.  I was told that I 
> had to take the agent's arm.  I said I was fine with the cane, and 
> that the cane would not set off the metal detector.  I was told 
> that I could not do that, even after offering them the copy of 
> their own regulations saying that I could and should.
> >
> > What followed was punitive action taken because I tried to assert 
> my right to travel with a cane, not an arm.  You'd think punishment 
> for using a cane rather than a sighted guide is right up the NFB's alley.
> > Apparently though, it's not.
> >
> > I'll be pursuing it on my own.  But as Mike so eloquently put it, 
> I'm "not a-gonna win" if I do that.  I will do it anyway, though, 
> because it is the right thing to do.  We fought for the right to 
> our canes, and if we haven't got the guts to defend that right, 
> then we don't really have it after all.
> >
> > I'll just hope that when I lose, I don't manage to set any new 
> precedents that we don't in fact have a right to our canes.  I 
> don't know that I could prevent that going it alone, but several 
> people have made it quite clear that punishment for using a white 
> cane just isn't the NFB's fight.
> >
> > Joseph
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 05:56:43PM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote:
> >> Joeseph,
> >> I'm sure there is more to the story; its clear they did extra screening
> >> as a punishment.
> >> But what rights were violated? Where did they insist upon sighted guide?
> >> I thought you gave up your cane for scanning and walked through the
> >> scanner without it?
> >> So where does this sighted guide come in? If you walk five steps
> >> without your cane, it's a straight shot, and you didn't have a guide.
> >> I never had a guide when going through a security metal detector
> >> whether at a federal building, at the Capitol for a concert, or the
> >> Pentagon.
> >>
> >> I was a little upset when they wanted me to give up my cane last time I
> >> flew as well.
> >> But after I walked through the scanner without setting it off, it was
> >> returned to me promptly.
> >> If you file a complaint with TSA, let us know how it goes.
> >> Ashley
> >>
> >> -----Original Message----- From: T. Joseph Carter
> >> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:28 PM
> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
> >>
> >> So what you're saying, Brian, is that you're willing to be intimidated
> >> into giving up your rights, because the big boogeyman TSA agents can do
> >> too much to you if you don't do exactly what they say, whether it's
> >> illegal or flies in the face of every battle we have fought long and
> >> hard for as an organization?
> >>
> >> Just want to be sure I understand here.  Because the TSA said that of
> >> nearly 3,000 blind people going through the airport, I'm the only one
> >> who insisted that I had a right NOT to be led around like a child,
> >> denied the use of my cane for travel.
> >>
> >> Joseph
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 09:07:58PM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
> >>> Hi Peter,
> >>>
> >>> I don't think anyone feels that Joe was treated well, or with the
> >>> respect he deserves, but security checks are a serious hassle and a
> >>> drag for everyone, and indignities abound.  I think solidarity across
> >>> the board, and not just for blind people, is in order.
> >>>
> >>> I merely say that for me using my cane to walk a few feet through the
> >>> metal detector is not worth fighting over -- the last thing I need is
> >>> to end up on a "no fly" list.  The point is, you are exactly right
> >>> that the blind have been fighting, and getting arrested, and going to
> >>> jail, for years over our right to have our mobility devices, and we've
> >>> won some, and lost many others.  I think we need to figure out where
> >>> to focus our energies to maximize independence while recognizing that
> >>> we face a very difficult environment in which to make our arguments
> >>> when it comes to security.
> >>>
> >>> Heck, we still don't, and maybe never will, have the right to sit in
> >>> the emergency row -- now that makes me feel more like a child than
> >>> does a quick guide through the magnetometer .
> >>>
> >>> Not long ago Dr. Fred Schoeder was denied the right to fly to a
> >>> meeting because he was traveling alone... Granted, this was not in the
> >>> United States, but that kind of right of freedom of movement, is
> >>> something I'm willing to lie down on the tarmac for and go to jail....
> >>> Maybe not a jail in Thailand, though *smile*
> >>>
> >>> In any case, I don't think Alicia, or any of us, are trying to
> >>> miminize the fight we all face.
> >>>
> >>> Brian M
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >>> On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
> >>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:30 AM
> >>> To: Alicia Richards; NFB Talk Mailing List
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
> >>>
> >>> Hello Alicia and everyone,
> >>>
> >>> The next time you pass through a TSA Check point we'll cut both of
> >>> your feet off and demand that you walk through like anyone else. Blind
> >>> people have fought long and hard to be allowed to keep their canes and
> >>> dogs with them at all times while passing through TSA check points and
> >>> on planes themselves.
> >>> Blind people were arrested and went to jail to insure these rights are
> >>> protected and we don't need our own people telling us that it's not a
> >>> big deal.
> >>>
> >>> Peter Donahue who along with Mary took their last flight ever on a
> >>> commercial airliner and can look forward to avoiding TSA screeners in
> >>> the future!
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Alicia Richards" <alicianfb at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:37 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree with Mike and others here.  Yes, the TSA has been given too
> >>> much power.  It's shameful that they can perform such invasive
> >>> patdowns, violating one's personal space and dignity.  but as Ryan
> >>> said, that's not a blindness issue: they can do that to anyone.  And,
> >>> I've never understood people's issue with giving up their cane for 30
> >>> seconds, taking someone's hand to walk five steps through the security
> >>> check, and then have their cane handed right back to them.  I question
> >>> someone's mobility training if they are unable to walk five steps
> >>> without their cane, and also can't help but wonder if they're
> >>> exhibiting what I believe was once called, "rebellious independence,"
> >>> by refusing to take the hand or arm of a TSA official for that very
> >>> brief time.  But to each their own.  Joseph, I'll be curious if you
> >>> get a reply from Scott LaBarre about this?
> >>>
> >>> Alicia
> >>>





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