[nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discrimination in Orlando

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Thu Jul 14 16:01:48 UTC 2011 

Joe,

Couldn't they claim that it was your cane tip that set off the metal detector when the agent went through?  You have said that you were forced to use 
sighted guide to go through, so I would assume that your cane was probably held at least a little in front of you.  This is very strange that they would send an 
agent through ahead of you.  One reason I think the complaint is worth filing is that it seems clear that whatever the results, someone needs to be made 
aware of the fact that something unusual happened in the case of your treatment even from their perspective.  From our perspective, it was far more than 
"Something unusual" of course.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:14:08 -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote:

>Steve, I was quite calm about the situation until after I stepped 
>through the metal detector and didnâ¬"t set it off.  It beeped before I 
>stepped through it when the agent did, and again after I stepped 
>through when another person tripped it.

>Thereâ¬"s also a flashing light that would be visible on video.

>BTW, if you attempt to record the TSA, including your own passage 
>through security, they can and will arrest you.  Donâ¬"t do it.

>Joseph


>On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 03:01:03PM -0500, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>If anything good is to come out of this, this must all be thought through carefully.  I think the first thing to do is to find out where and how to
>>lodge a complaint.  The second thing is to think through the whole situation and figure out which part of what happened can be clearly proven.  It is very
>>likely that it will be a lot of Joe's word against their word here.  For example, we do not think that the metal detector went off.  Are we sure, though, and 
can
>>we prove it?  Do they always make a sound?  Can Joe say for certain that he didn't hear it going off given his state by then?  If they claim that the metal
>>detector went off, then their pat-down is going to be seen as justifiable.  Whether Joe should have been taken behind a screen is then a separate matter
>>and I don't know what sort of regulations there are.
>>
>>Joe, I understand your frustration when people miss the point completely, but you seem to require that we are 100% cheerleaders or we are against you.
>>You don't need cheerleaders, you need people to ask challenging questions now so you have the answers later.  You also need to take into account the
>>fact that some people take vacations after conventions, and your case doesn't have a one week statute of limitations. If you have not done so, you 
should
>>carefully write down your experience with as much of the details as you can remember.  Your post here is a pretty good start, but try to get past the anger
>>and relate events as objectively as you can.  Identify the staff with whom you interacted as much as you can.  Someone said you should avoid that 
airline,
>>but I don't think the people you dealt with were likely airline personnel, but it may not be clear to whom they are responsible.  If you are wrong about the
>>metal detector not going off or even if they claim you are wrong, it puts a lot of doubt on your case since what they did after would no longer be punitive 
but
>>procedure.  Was there anyone with you who would be in a good position to back up your position that you did not set off the metal detector?  Even if it is
>>your word against theirs, it is still worth filing a complaint.  Even if they claim that, for example, the metal detector went off and they were then following
>>procedure, your complaint at least shows that they did not communicate with you well which is still wrong.  Over the years we hve helped a number of
>>people with complaints here in Minnesota, and it just isn't always the case that the first line of defense is waiting for the national office to get back to you.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Steve Jacobson
>>
>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:41:18 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>
>>>Joseph, I am not looking to contradict what you are saying; but, frankly, I wonder something.  did you attempt to telephone Scot Labarre?  did you 
attempt
>>to telephone Dr. Maurer?  I myself have successfully reached him a time or two when I needed to.  I understand your anger; and, believe me, I am not 
trying
>>to say that what happened to you was right.  Neither, for that matter, is anybody else.  I fail to understand how you were attacked by any leader of the
>>federation on this list.  I plead with you not to let the present anger you feel cause you to believe the entire federation is against you.  Quite naturally, you
>>wish an emidiate response; and, I'm sure we all would like the same thing.  But, sometimes, a phone call is much faster than e-mail.  May I respectfully
>>suggest that you might get better results if you telephoned the national center:
>>
>>>410-659-9314
>>>and got Dr. Maurer on the phone?  It can be done.  I hope you do not hold the view that just because I'm defending the list to the extent I am, that I'm
>>against you.  Doubtless, that is hard to see now because of the emotional closeness of your situation.  Try the phone.  I suspect that you will get faster
>>results.  Hypothetically, let's say you got hold of Dr. Maurer this very day.  Let's say he agreed to take the case.  Do you seriously imagine that we could 
haul
>>the  TSA in court and make them pay up on your behalf tomorrow?  Not possible.  I know you want a resolution of this matter right now; but, to speak
>>frankly, you're not going to get it by just sending one or two e-mails and then waiting letting your anger increase until you think the entire federation is 
against
>>you just because you happened to read the personal opinions of perhaps one or two federation leaders who may or may not agree with you.  Please keep
>>this in mind.  Those were their personal opinions only; NOT, mind you, the actual official positions of the organization.  Perhaps, before you type your reply 
to
>>this, perhaps you should pick up the phone and contact Scott Labarre and Dr. Maurer.  You may have to leave messages for them; but, they've got a lot 
to
>>do.  Still, at least give it a try.  I'm trying to be constructive with regard to your situation.  It's not that I do not believe you, I do.  IF I were in your situation 
and
>>you in mine, I'd expect you to tell me the same thing.  Don't let your anger blot out your reason.
>>
>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>
>>>Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>
>>>Skype name:
>>>barefootedray
>>
>>>Facebook:
>>>facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Jul 13, 2011, at 11:15 AM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>
>>>> Ray, my email to Scott LaBarre has gone completely unanswered and, so far as I can tell, completely ignored.
>>>>
>>>> And for the ten thousandth time: I WAS NOT OFFERED THE CHOICE of walking alone through the metal detector.
>>>>
>>>> The leaders of the Federation who purport to represent it should not be so quick to attack the membership if they dont want their opinions to be taken 
as
>>the organizations position.  I have their opinions and no other response.  What am I to think?
>>>>
>>>> Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 08:21:12AM -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>>> Until now, I have deliberately stayed out of this thread.  I wanted to see if cooler heads would prevail.  What seems to have happened is this.  
Joseph, I
>>wanted to say this to you openly on the list because I want it thoroughly understood where I'm coming from.  On the face of it, it would appear, based on
>>your story, that your rights as a blind person, (and a federationist also), were violated.  Clearly, and without doubt, your rights were indeed violated.  There 
is
>>no debate about that; and, it seems to me that everybody on the list pretty much agrees with you on that; and, perhaps, to that extent, shares your own
>>outrage.  The debate, it seems to me, is this.  Should this be a matter for the federation.  Clearly, in your opinion, the answer seems to be and ought to be
>>"yes".  However, there are some on this list, (a federation leader or two among them), who hold the view that, though much wrong was done you, it is not
>>necessarily a federation matter.  At this point, perhaps in the impulsive heat and freshness of your anger, you then attribute the contrary opinion to yours 
on
>>this list upon the part of some as being the "official" position of the National Federation of the Blind merely because such contrary opinion has been
>>expressed by one or more federation leaders.  Therefore, in your anger, (refreshed by such contrary opinions), you now view the federation as being 
against
>>you; and, you feel that most everyone on this list is against you.  Doubtless, in your pain and anger, you say to yourself, "IF a federation leader is going to
>>speak against me, then, surely, this represents the official opinion of the federation; and, therefore, it's useless to officially ask the federation for help
>>because a leader has spoken against me and his position is the official position of the federation.  IF this is the case, blast the whole thing!  I'm going on 
my
>>own and blast what the Federation says!".
>>>>>
>>>>> 	Joseph, let me remind you of something.  The National Federation has NOT, (I repeat and emphasize NOT), taken an "official" position against
>>your case or even for it.  Let us all recall this.  The only thing which has happened here is that You, Joseph, put to us your experiences at the airport,
>>(which, it should go without saying), were very bad and frankly  unnecessary.  Some discussion was had about the matter.  Some federation leaders who
>>just happened to be on this list contributed their personal opinions regarding this.  However, it's just as important to remember what DID, NOT, HAPPEN.
>>The National Federation of the Blind did NOT formally refuse to aid you.  The organization did not do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> 	Now, the last of my remarks are directed to the rest of us.  There is no  doubt, in my mind at least, that most of us here feel that Joseph was
>>wronged.  We're all with him on that.  Some of us posit that he should have been allowed to keep his cane; while, others of us, myself included, feel that 
he
>>could have done without it for the very short walk through what is essentially a straight line.  So, who is right and who is wrong?  I posit that this is a 
matter
>>we each need to determine for ourselves.  Some of us will feel one way, some of us another.  This is an extremely delicate balancing act which, if we are 
all
>>honest with ourselves, we will never get right all of the time.  Perhaps, as a matter of course, Joseph should seek official help from the federation if he 
feels
>>that there is a compelling necessity to obtain it.  Only then can he be assured of the "official" position of the organization one way or the other.  
Meantime,
>>all we all have are the various opinions of this and any other lists on which Joseph is.  We should, in my own view, back him as much as we can; but, 
then
>>too, we should not allow human emotion to cloud our judgement about such matters.  There's all types on this list; and, we are all at bering degrees of
>>independence and also at varying degrees of thinking about that independence.  I suspect that both frankness and some caution are what are wanted
>>here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> Facebook:
>>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 13, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not intend to start up a big stir, but Joseph, what do you have against walking a few steps, straight and then receiving your cane.  I have a little
>>sight, but I know I could do it with a blindfold.  Its only 5 or 6 steps!  You mean you can not walk anywhere in your home, with out your cane?  You can
>>even feal the threshold of the entrence, as you walk over it.
>>>>>> I do this, with no sighted guide and stay on the other side, until I get my cane back.  Coming back, I was also asked to take off my shoes.  I was
>>surprised, but did not complain, even though I have medical problems that make it hard to bend over.  I wanted to make it through, so I did what I guess
>>everyone else had to do and I made it through.
>>>>>> Terry Powers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: T. Joseph Carter [mailto:carter.tjoseph at gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:22 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I gave them my cane for scanning and asked to have it returned to me so I could travel through the metal detector.  I was told that I had to take the
>>agent's arm.  I said I was fine with the cane, and that the cane would not set off the metal detector.  I was told that I could not do that, even after offering
>>them the copy of their own regulations saying that I could and should.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What followed was punitive action taken because I tried to assert my right to travel with a cane, not an arm.  You'd think punishment for using a 
cane
>>rather than a sighted guide is right up the NFB's alley.
>>>>>> Apparently though, it's not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll be pursuing it on my own.  But as Mike so eloquently put it, I'm "not a-gonna win" if I do that.  I will do it anyway, though, because it is the right 
thing
>>to do.  We fought for the right to our canes, and if we haven't got the guts to defend that right, then we don't really have it after all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll just hope that when I lose, I don't manage to set any new precedents that we don't in fact have a right to our canes.  I don't know that I could
>>prevent that going it alone, but several people have made it quite clear that punishment for using a white cane just isn't the NFB's fight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 05:56:43PM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote:
>>>>>>> Joeseph,
>>>>>>> I'm sure there is more to the story; its clear they did extra screening
>>>>>>> as a punishment.
>>>>>>> But what rights were violated? Where did they insist upon sighted guide?
>>>>>>> I thought you gave up your cane for scanning and walked through the
>>>>>>> scanner without it?
>>>>>>> So where does this sighted guide come in? If you walk five steps
>>>>>>> without your cane, it's a straight shot, and you didn't have a guide.
>>>>>>> I never had a guide when going through a security metal detector
>>>>>>> whether at a federal building, at the Capitol for a concert, or the
>>>>>>> Pentagon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was a little upset when they wanted me to give up my cane last time I
>>>>>>> flew as well.
>>>>>>> But after I walked through the scanner without setting it off, it was
>>>>>>> returned to me promptly.
>>>>>>> If you file a complaint with TSA, let us know how it goes.
>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: T. Joseph Carter
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what you're saying, Brian, is that you're willing to be intimidated
>>>>>>> into giving up your rights, because the big boogeyman TSA agents can do
>>>>>>> too much to you if you don't do exactly what they say, whether it's
>>>>>>> illegal or flies in the face of every battle we have fought long and
>>>>>>> hard for as an organization?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just want to be sure I understand here.  Because the TSA said that of
>>>>>>> nearly 3,000 blind people going through the airport, I'm the only one
>>>>>>> who insisted that I had a right NOT to be led around like a child,
>>>>>>> denied the use of my cane for travel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 09:07:58PM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Peter,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone feels that Joe was treated well, or with the
>>>>>>>> respect he deserves, but security checks are a serious hassle and a
>>>>>>>> drag for everyone, and indignities abound.  I think solidarity across
>>>>>>>> the board, and not just for blind people, is in order.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I merely say that for me using my cane to walk a few feet through the
>>>>>>>> metal detector is not worth fighting over -- the last thing I need is
>>>>>>>> to end up on a "no fly" list.  The point is, you are exactly right
>>>>>>>> that the blind have been fighting, and getting arrested, and going to
>>>>>>>> jail, for years over our right to have our mobility devices, and we've
>>>>>>>> won some, and lost many others.  I think we need to figure out where
>>>>>>>> to focus our energies to maximize independence while recognizing that
>>>>>>>> we face a very difficult environment in which to make our arguments
>>>>>>>> when it comes to security.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Heck, we still don't, and maybe never will, have the right to sit in
>>>>>>>> the emergency row -- now that makes me feel more like a child than
>>>>>>>> does a quick guide through the magnetometer .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not long ago Dr. Fred Schoeder was denied the right to fly to a
>>>>>>>> meeting because he was traveling alone... Granted, this was not in the
>>>>>>>> United States, but that kind of right of freedom of movement, is
>>>>>>>> something I'm willing to lie down on the tarmac for and go to jail....
>>>>>>>> Maybe not a jail in Thailand, though *smile*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In any case, I don't think Alicia, or any of us, are trying to
>>>>>>>> miminize the fight we all face.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brian M
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:30 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Alicia Richards; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Alicia and everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The next time you pass through a TSA Check point we'll cut both of
>>>>>>>> your feet off and demand that you walk through like anyone else. Blind
>>>>>>>> people have fought long and hard to be allowed to keep their canes and
>>>>>>>> dogs with them at all times while passing through TSA check points and
>>>>>>>> on planes themselves.
>>>>>>>> Blind people were arrested and went to jail to insure these rights are
>>>>>>>> protected and we don't need our own people telling us that it's not a
>>>>>>>> big deal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue who along with Mary took their last flight ever on a
>>>>>>>> commercial airliner and can look forward to avoiding TSA screeners in
>>>>>>>> the future!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Alicia Richards" <alicianfb at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:37 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Mike and others here.  Yes, the TSA has been given too
>>>>>>>> much power.  It's shameful that they can perform such invasive
>>>>>>>> patdowns, violating one's personal space and dignity.  but as Ryan
>>>>>>>> said, that's not a blindness issue: they can do that to anyone.  And,
>>>>>>>> I've never understood people's issue with giving up their cane for 30
>>>>>>>> seconds, taking someone's hand to walk five steps through the security
>>>>>>>> check, and then have their cane handed right back to them.  I question
>>>>>>>> someone's mobility training if they are unable to walk five steps
>>>>>>>> without their cane, and also can't help but wonder if they're
>>>>>>>> exhibiting what I believe was once called, "rebellious independence,"
>>>>>>>> by refusing to take the hand or arm of a TSA official for that very
>>>>>>>> brief time.  But to each their own.  Joseph, I'll be curious if you
>>>>>>>> get a reply from Scott LaBarre about this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alicia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>>>>> signature database 6282 (20110710) __________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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