[nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' claimsover airport kiosks

Michael Hingson info at michaelhingson.com
Sun Jun 19 20:36:58 UTC 2011 

John,

Well, you just said it yourself.  If programmers got the jobs lawyers wouldn't and we cannot have that can we?  (grin).

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-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 12:28 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' claimsover airport kiosks

Well, its not really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with my position. 
After all, the court's ruling in this case is a historical fact. I guess 
there is a possibility that someone could dispute my comment that we're 
going to have to get the law changed and instead argue for trying again in 
court. Of course, I'm fine with that.

My main point (if you can call it that) was just to whine about how unfair 
and stupid the laws are and how unfair and stupid the airlines are being. 
This is really the thing that bugs me... Why are companies so much more 
willing to pay lawyers than programmers? First of all, programmers are 
probably going to be cheaper. Secondly, it works better to pay programmers. 
Everybody wins when facilities are made accessible. Well, except for 
lawyers.
Instead of paying information technologists  to help them improve their 
businesses, the airlines paid lawyers to help them do a crummier job serving 
their customers.  Figure that one out.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' 
claimsover airport kiosks


> Joseph:
>
> I believe that Mike is right; ACA trumps ADA and the courts will back that 
> position up. That's why I actually agreed with John on this one. (grin)
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 6:06 AM
> To: info at michaelhingson.com; NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' 
> claims over airport kiosks
>
> Michael, I believe that is incorrect.  The ACAA indicates that states
> may not place additional regulatory or legislative burden upon
> airports beyond those specified in federal law.  The ADA is federal
> law.  As such, it applies.
>
> The ACAA legislation effectively takes airports and, according to the
> judge’s decision airport kiosks, out of state jurisdiction.  The NFB
> sued under California law because California law has more teeth than
> the ADA.  The judge ruled that California law may not be applied,
> however.  We still have the ADA, though the power of the NFB to
> "convince" airlines to see things our way is not as great (that is,
> the airlines have less to lose if they don’t settle with us.)
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 09:30:25PM -0700, Michael Hingson wrote:
>>To be clear no one will ever determine that the kiosks violate the ADA 
>>since they come solely under the prevue of the ACAA.  That is, of course 
>>part of the problem.
>>
>>Until citizens have the right to bring personal actions under the ACAA and 
>>litigate for damages then we shall not see the changes we desire.
>>
>>
>>Mike Hingson
>>
>>The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>> “Speaking with Vision”
>>Michael Hingson, President
>>(415) 827-4084
>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>To learn more about my upcoming book, speaking topics and speaking 
>>availability please visit www.michaelhingson.com
>>Thunder Dog is now available for early ordering on Amazon!!! 
>>http://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Dog-Blind-Triumph-Ground/dp/140020304X/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1289090352&sr=1-3
>>
>>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
>>Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 8:36 PM
>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' 
>>claimsover airport kiosks
>>
>>Air travel has been socialized.  In the brave new world (order, if
>>you require tinfoil headgear), the Federal government is the only
>>authority as to your civil and legal rights, accessibility not least
>>among them.
>>
>>Nobody has yet determined that the kiosks do not violate the ADA, and
>>the appropriate agencies can regulate them without necessarily
>>changing the statute.  For every page of law, there are ten of
>>regulation to implement the law.
>>
>>Ain’t bureaucracy great?
>>
>>Joseph
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 09:20:22AM -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>John:
>>>
>>>I agree with you on this one. It will be interesting to see how appellate 
>>>courts deal with this issue since ever since 9/11, courts have given 
>>>airport personnel far more leeway in dealing with human rights issues 
>>>than they would have were the location somewhere other than an airport. 
>>>It will be interesting to see if this holds true in this instance. I hope 
>>>not but I am not sanguine.
>>>
>>>We may have to get Congress to change the law but this may be easier said 
>>>than      done given current politics.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>On Jun 17, 2011, at 8:48, "John Heim" <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, the real issue is that the law is stupid.  I can understand the 
>>>> reason for the Air Carrier Access Act but it shouldn't apply to airport 
>>>> kiosks. I can believe that it does, but it shouldn't. The airlines are 
>>>> just taking advantage of a legal loophole to discriminate against the 
>>>> blind.
>>>>
>>>> This is a no-brainer technically.  Its the exact same technology that 
>>>> is used in ATM and voting machines.  Really, the airlines should be 
>>>> ashamed of themselves for fighting this. I'll bet they spent way more 
>>>> money on lawyers than they would have on making their kiosks 
>>>> accessible. In the end, I bet they have to spend the money on 
>>>> accessibility anyway. Their decision was both stupid and mean spirited.
>>>>
>>>> So now we have to start working to get the law changed to specifically 
>>>> exclude airport kiosks from the Air Carrier Access Act. It will 
>>>> probably take a long time and take quite a bit of work. But it may not 
>>>> be too hard. The CCVA passed fairly easily. Well, there may be some 
>>>> people on this list saying, "Yeah, easy for you to say. You weren't 
>>>> involved in all the hard work that entailed." Well, yeah, I know. But 
>>>> still, it wasn't like it took 20 years and snuck through with a one 
>>>> vote margin. I think Congress is pretty open to the idea of 
>>>> accessibility when its not too difficult technically.
>>>>
>>>> Boy, sometimes capitalism sucks. I'm not saying there is anything 
>>>> better but sometimes capitalism just sucks.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:26 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' 
>>>> claimsover airport kiosks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the article here in question is an abstract of a court decision and 
>>>> merely
>>>> states what was decided. As this was taken from a legal publication it 
>>>> is
>>>> merely presenting the facts and not making judgments or editoralizing.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darian Smith" <dsmithnfb at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 11:53 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] {Disarmed} Federal law preempts blind flyers' 
>>>> claims
>>>> over airport kiosks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oftly one-sided article, huh?
>>>>
>>>> On 5/23/11, Sherri <flmom2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I'm sure we'll think of some other way to solve this problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sherri
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Westlaw Journal Aviation
>>>>> Federal law preempts blind flyers' claims over airport kiosks
>>>>> 5/23/2011 COMMENTS (0)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> May 23 (Westlaw Journals) - Federal law preempts a class action 
>>>>> brought by
>>>>> the National Federation of the Blind and several visually impaired 
>>>>> people
>>>>> over the accessibility of airport ticketing kiosks, a California 
>>>>> federal
>>>>> judge has ruled.
>>>>>
>>>>> U.S. District Judge William Alsup of the Northern District of 
>>>>> California
>>>>> dismissed the NFB's lawsuit, finding the claims preempted by the Air 
>>>>> Carrier
>>>>> Access Act and the Airline Deregulation Act.
>>>>>
>>>>> The NFB and other plaintiffs alleged United Airlines violates 
>>>>> California
>>>>> disability law by failing to make airport ticketing kiosks accessible 
>>>>> to the
>>>>> blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the complaint, the kiosks employ a visual computer screen 
>>>>> with
>>>>> prompts and touch-screen navigation but do not offer an audio output 
>>>>> or
>>>>> other medium to make the kiosks accessible to the blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> The plaintiffs brought their class action on behalf of all legally 
>>>>> blind
>>>>> people in the United States who have flown on United from a California
>>>>> airport and have been unable to use the airline's kiosks.
>>>>>
>>>>> United moved for dismissal, arguing that the Airline Deregulation Act 
>>>>> and
>>>>> the Air Carrier Access Act preempt the plaintiffs' claims.
>>>>>
>>>>> Judge Alsup agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The claims are field-preempted under the ACAA because the Department 
>>>>> of
>>>>> Transportation pervasively regulates airport kiosk accessibility, he 
>>>>> said.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition, the Airline Deregulation Act expressly preempts the 
>>>>> claims
>>>>> because they defendants provide an airline "service" as defined in the
>>>>> statute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, the judge rejected the plaintiffs' argument that the Airline
>>>>> Deregulation Act was meant to target airline deregulation rather than
>>>>> discrimination.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Airline Deregulation Act unequivocally declares that no state may 
>>>>> enact
>>>>> a law related to airline service," the Judge Alsup said.  "Congress 
>>>>> could
>>>>> have drawn the preemption provision more narrowly.  It did not."
>>>>>
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind et al. v. United Airlines Inc., No. C
>>>>> 10-04816 WHA, 2011 WL 1544524 (N.D. Cal. Apr. 25, 2011).
>>>>>
>>>>> (Reporting by Jennifer Long, Westlaw Journal Aviation)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Register or log in to comment.
>>>>> © 2011 Thomson Reuters
>>>>>
>>>>>  a.. Co
>>>>> Have you visited my personal page at
>>>>> http://www.raceforindependence.org/goto/Sherri.Brun
>>>>> If so, Thank you for changing what it means to be blind.
>>>>> If not, please go there now!
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> flmom2006 at gmail.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
>>>> — Robert Byrne
>>>>
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