[nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act

Thu Apr 2 02:53:28 UTC 2015

It is an interesting topic.  And I find myself torn between knowing that
there is a major amount of discrimination going on against Christians and/or
those who are blind, and my beliefs that government ought not be able to
tell you how you may adhere to the doctrinal tenants of what you believe. If
this was an ideal world, and things were totally fair, this discussion would
not need to even take place.  But, it isn't, and the real world is not fair.
So you need to fight for the beliefs and causes you stand for.  

Loren 

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of JohnC.
Scott via nfb-talk
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 8:05 PM
To: 'John Heim'; 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act

This is a very interesting topic for the membership.  I was aware of
restaurant owners discriminating, but cab drivers doing so was a surprise.
Personally, I believe it is discriminatory and something the NFB should
address. Coincidentally, recently I have been reading (practicing my braille
reading) a Dr. Jernigan banquet speech "Blindness That's How It Is At The
Top Of The Stairs".  In the speech he compared the treatment of the blind to
slavery in America.  I could had taken offense to it because I am an African
American, but I did not.  I believe his intentions were noble and heartfelt.

If the NFB speaks out against it; we might even red the well worn
phrase"Even the blind can see it is discriminatory"''Best Always,

John C. Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Heim
via nfb-talk
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 9:15 AM
To: Mike Freeman; NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act

Mike, you're not listening. It's one thing to disagree. It's another to
ignore the points people are making with respect to what you are saying. 
We all pretty much acknowledge that federal law pre-empts state law (subject
to all the qualifications Paul mentioned in another message). 
Our point is that the wheels of justice grind slowly. It's not particularly
relevant that federal law trumps state law because what we think is going to
happen is that blind people are going to be discriminated against and then
have to go to court to prove their rights have been violated. It would be
better to keep the discrimination from happening in the first place.

I am theorizing that the Indiana law is going to result in a flood of
discrimination incidents based on misinformation regarding the law. 
Imagine a police officer being called to a restaurant in Indiana where a
person with a service dog has been denied access. The owner says it is
against his religion to let the dog in. Obviously, the officer has heard of
this law that allows people to refuse service to someone based on religious
beliefs. He is a little iffy on the ADA. What do you think the police
officer is going to do?

On 03/31/2015 10:13 PM, Mike Freeman via nfb-talk wrote:
> But remember that Federal law preempts state law.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy 
> Brannan via nfb-talk
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 4:35 PM
> To: mike at michaelhingson.com; NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act
>
> Yeah, what he said. *Should* being the operative word. If someone is 
> denied access, even if done wrongly, the wheels of justice spin 
> slowly. Very slowly. What in the meantime? By the way Paup, while you 
> are correct that official doctrine says guide dogs are an exception, 
> the fact that someone misinterprets doesn't make it any less a 
> religious issue for *that* person, wrong as it may be, and as I read 
> the law and interpretations of it, this would be a valid application.
> To say that "this law doesn't apply to us, so we can do nothing" is, I 
> believe, hiding our heads in the sand. It very well
> *could* apply to us, and the circumstances of that application aren't 
> so far fetched.
>
> ...and then, they came for me.
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 31, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Michael Hingson via nfb-talk
> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Chris should be correct, but I think the law opens a door that should 
>> not
> be
>> opened.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Freeman [mailto:k7uij at panix.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 1:44 PM
>> To: info at michaelhingson.com; 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>> Subject: RE: [nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act
>>
>> Federal law trumps state law and the ADA still applies in the 
>> situation of people using guide dogs being refused cab rides.
>>
>> In other words, I think Chris is correct.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Michael Hingson via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 1:24 PM
>> To: 'Chris Nusbaum'; 'NFB Talk Mailing List'; 'John Heim'
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> I respectively disagree. What about the many Islamic oriented taxi 
>> drivers who deny the rights of blind persons with guide dogs to ride 
>> in their
> cabs?
>> I believe that under this law blind guide dog users can be prevented 
>> from equal and total access.
>>
>> The "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" does effect blind people
directly.
>> The law isn't just about gays and lesbians.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> Chris Nusbaum via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 12:35 PM
>> To: 'John Heim'; 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Regardless of our individual feelings on this legislation, I don't 
>> think
> it
>> would be appropriate for the NFB to add our collective voice to the
> already
>> strong chorus of opposition to this bill.  Throughout our history we 
>> have had a policy which states that we do not officially get involved 
>> in political controversies which do not directly effect the blind. If 
>> we were to justify our opposition to this legislation by asserting 
>> that blind
> people
>> could be effected because there are blind people who are also gay, we
> could
>> use the same logic to justify our collective support of or opposition 
>> to virtually every issue with which a federal or state legislature 
>> concerns itself. In adopting this line of reasoning, we would begin 
>> to lose our
> focus
>> and eventually the very purpose for which our organization is 
>> founded. We are an organization which deals specifically with issues 
>> which directly effect the blind on account of our blindness. Other 
>> matters, however important they might be to an individual blind 
>> person, would not fall
> under
>> our jurisdiction and would be contrary to the organizational purposes 
>> established in our Constitution.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John 
>> Heim via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:12 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act
>>
>>
>> The NFB should issue a statement condemning Indiana's religious 
>> freedom
> act.
>> I've been discriminated against in my life. I once was  turned down 
>> for a job because the person who did the interview literally would 
>> not believe that a blind person could use a computer. I'd been 
>> working as a programmer and systems administrator for 15 years at 
>> that point. Another time, I actually diagnosed a network problem 
>> during the job interview. I plugged
> my
>> laptop into the network, ran some diagnostics, and explained what the 
>> problem was right there during the interview. But I didn't get that 
>> job either because they said part of the job was drawing images for 
>> their web site. Admittedly, It's debatable whether that second 
>> example is discrimination. In fact, I personally would not call it 
>> discrimination but people I've mentioned it to have felt otherwise.
>> The point is that I know what it's like being turned down for a job 
>> because of something you can't control.  I know what it's like when 
>> that happens to you when you're
> worried
>> about having health insurance for your family and making the house
> payment.
>> I remember coming home from the job interview where I diagnosed the
> network
>> problem, dancing around and telling my wife I'd nailed it. I remember 
>> the feeling I got a few days later when she read me the rejection 
>> letter that said they really needed someone who could see. I said it 
>> was their loss
> and
>> tried to believe it. But we really needed our health insurance.
>>
>> Now you have a bunch of lawmakers in Indiana telling us it's okay for 
>> someone to turn a person down for a job because they're in a gay
marriage.
>> Most of those lawmakers in Indiana have probably never been 
>> discriminated against in their lives. They don't know what it's like.
>>
>> What they are doing is just wrong. And even if you don't agree, we in 
>> the NFB need to stand  up against discrimination in all of it's forms.
>> This law is intended for use against gays but there's no reason it 
>> can't
> be
>> used against racial minorities or even disabled people.
>>
>> We have to add our voices to those who have come out against this law.
>> It's the right thing to do.
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Heim
>> john at johnheim.com
>>
>>
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--
John Heim
john at johnheim.com

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