[nfb-talk] Climate
David Andrews
dandrews at visi.com
Tue Jun 23 02:18:48 UTC 2015
John:
You continuously bring up areas in which our view did not prevail,
ignoring areas in which we were successful, such as Quiet Cars. You
then conclude that we are systematically and continuously wrong, and
take the wrong or losing position. Anyway we have been down this
road before and I am not going to change your mind, and you are
unlikely to change mine.
Dave
At 12:19 PM 6/22/2015, you wrote:
>I feel I should correct a mistake I made. I did say that it makes no
>sense for Marc Maurer to go in front of Congress and testify against
>tactile markings. However, all I was doing was to assume that
>members of this list would remember the context of that event.
>
>For years, the NFB had been negotiating with the Bureau of Engraving
>to get tactile markings on bills. Prior to the ACB lawsuit, There
>were at least 2 NFB resolutions calling for tactile markings on
>bills. Prior to the ACB lawsuit, the NFB successfully lobbied
>Congress to write a resolution to urge the Bureau of Engraving to
>add tactile markings to bills. Originally, the NFB's stance on the
>ACB lawsuit was that while we were in favor of tactile markings, we
>felt the lawsuit was a "publicity stunt" and that it was too risky.
>If it failed, the negotiations with the Bureau of Engraving would be
>over. But that stance morphed to a point where Marc Maurer sat
>before a congressional committee and said asking for tactile
>markings on bills made blind people look "helpless".
>
>At the time, I was criticized for describing the NFB's position as
>being against tactile markings. If you read Marc Maurer's
>testimony before Congress, I don't know how you can describe it as
>anything but being against tactile markings. And I don't know how
>anyone can say that it wasn't a complete reversal of the NFB's
>position on tactile markings before the ACB lawsuit. If anyone can
>explain that, I'm listening.
>
>This is not just an example of the fact that no organization is
>perfect. This is a systematic failure on the part of the NFB. We can
>go through issue after issue and the same pattern emerges. And it's
>starting again. If some group like the ACB started an initiative to
>require that all medical devices talk, certain people on this list
>would declare the initiative irresponsible and say that it was
>doomed to failure. And I wouldn't be surprised if before we knew it,
>the NFB was taking an official stance against it. If you think
>that's unrealistic, I give you Marc Maurer's testimony before
>Congress on tactile markings on bills.
>
>PS: The normal pattern at this point would be for people to
>criticize me for dredging up the past. I don['t want credit for
>being right. I just want the NFB to stop taking the wrong and/or
>losing side of issue after issue. I am not claiming to be some kind
>of genius who is never wrong. I am simply claiming to not be subject
>to this bizarre "NFB Climate" disease.
>
>
>Daveid Andrews wrote:
>Part of the problem here is that you seem to feel that anyone who
>has a position different from yours is just wrong! You say so
>below, tactile markings on bills is right and anything or anybody
>who thinks differently is just wrong.
>>>
>>>There can be a variety of reasons for not putting tactile marks on
>>>bills both practical and political. There can also be different
>>>identification methods. But to you, because we didn't support
>>>your position we are just wrong.
>>>
>>>No individual or organization is perfect. There may well be times
>>>when the NFB was wrong, and other times when the approach we
>>>promoted didn't prevail, but that doesn't make us wrong. And ...
>>>there are topics upon which our position has or is eveolving. But
>>>to you we are wrong for anything different from what you think.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>At 07:43 PM 6/21/2015, you wrote:
>>>>Lets call it like it is, Dave... The NFB has fought against
>>>>things because the ACB was for them and the ACB has fought
>>>>against things because the NFB was for them. If you tell me other
>>>>groups like people in wheelchairs or ethnic minority groups do
>>>>the same thing, well, first of all, I doubt it. But even if it's
>>>>true, what difference does it make? The fact is that the rivalry
>>>>between the NFB and ACB hurts our cause.
>>>>
>>>>Marc Maurer went in front of Congress and testified against
>>>>tactile markings on bills. Are you going to tell me that stance
>>>>makes sense in any way, shape, or form? What the heck sense can
>>>>that possibly make?
>>>>
>>>>On 06/21/2015 06:47 PM, David Andrews via nfb-talk wrote:
>>>>>No, they are just being lazy. On most topics there are
>>>>>difffering views, and legislators need to hear all sides and make decisions.
>>>>>There is no reason we should all agree beforehand, it doesn't
>>>>>happen anywhere else, outside of blindness.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>At 05:03 PM 6/21/2015, you wrote:
>>>>>>Hello:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think a major part of the problem getting lawmakers to give serious
>>>>>>consideration to issues for the blind is the differing opinions
>>>>>>of the two
>>>>>>major blindness organizations. If NFB and ACB would both be on the same
>>>>>>side of an issue it would present a united front which would result in a
>>>>>>larger impact. Many years ago I was meeting with state lawmakers. They
>>>>>>said it was very confusing because they received opposit
>>>>>>opinions of how the
>>>>>>blind wanted them to vote on an issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sandra.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: John Heim via nfb-talk
>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 5:18 PM
>>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>Cc: John Heim
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Climate
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But that's just Arkansas. One of the reasons the NFB gave for siding
>>>>>>with movie producers in fighting early FFC regulations on video
>>>>>>descriptions was that we'd rather have accessible emergency information.
>>>>>>Well, the logic aside, the truth is that we'd rather have both. But
>>>>>>people at the NFB disregarded that possibility. Then along comes the
>>>>>>Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessability Act and it's
>>>>>>a reality. The NFB approved a resolution calling the ACB lawsuit on
>>>>>>accessible money a "publicity stunt". The ACB won that lawsuit in spite
>>>>>>of the NFB doing everything they could do to stop it. Think of how much
>>>>>>easier these things would have been if the NFB had thrown it's weight in
>>>>>>on the winning side. And the NFB itself would be far better off. After
>>>>>>the ACB won it's suit, the NFB had to ask that it be allowed to be part
>>>>>>of the negotiations on how money would be made accessible. I talked to
>>>>>>the President of the ACB via email and he was reluctant to let the NFB
>>>>>>be part of the negotiations not just because of the hard feelings but
>>>>>>also because of the possibility of the NFB being a negative influence on
>>>>>>the negotiations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This negative attitude is harmful. Just because you think you can do
>>>>>>something, that doesn't mean you can. But if you think you can't do
>>>>>>something, then you are almost certain to fail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 06/19/2015 05:26 PM, Larry Wayland via nfb-talk wrote:
>>>>>> > John, I am not totally disagreeing with you on this. Yes we
>>>>>> need to fight
>>>>>> > vigorously for accessibility rights in all reasonable areas, most
>>>>>> > especially
>>>>>> > in education and the work place. Having said that, I am
>>>>>> going to repeat
>>>>>> > that the political climate is not good at this time. Doesn't
>>>>>> mean we don't
>>>>>> > need to fight as a matter of fact we need to fight harder. I
>>>>>> have faced
>>>>>> > some of these bad climate legislators across a table in our State
>>>>>> > Capital.
>>>>>> > One are two were friendly but most were not and some were
>>>>>> bordering on
>>>>>> > being hostel. They were in the process of repealing the
>>>>>> technology law I
>>>>>> > mentioned in a previous message. The speaker of the House told me that
>>>>>> > they
>>>>>> > needed to protect the people of the state from a Law Suit. I
>>>>>> got the idea
>>>>>> > that he felt the blind people of the state did not really
>>>>>> have any rights.
>>>>>> > While the law was in place for 13 years, it was affective in causing
>>>>>> > developers to set up regular meetings to discuss
>>>>>> accessibility and things
>>>>>> > were looking better, not great, but better. I don't want to
>>>>>> go into all
>>>>>> > the
>>>>>> > story, its too long. The law was successfully repealed and
>>>>>> replaced withg
>>>>>> > one that matches 508. That was two years ago and now there
>>>>>> is no meetings
>>>>>> > no discussion and no accessibility development as far as I can tell.
>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of John Heim
>>>>>> > via nfb-talk
>>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:56 PM
>>>>>> > To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> > Cc: John Heim
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Climate
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Come on, Larry, do you really think I was saying you had to change the
>>>>>> > world
>>>>>> > all by yourself?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > When I wrote of your negative attitude, I was talking about
>>>>>> your comment
>>>>>> > agreeing with Tom Freeman that the climate wasn't right for
>>>>>> getting laws
>>>>>> > passed to get things fixed. First of all, that's not even
>>>>>> true. The truth
>>>>>> > is
>>>>>> > that much of the progress that has been made has been in spite of the
>>>>>> > NFB's
>>>>>> > efforts to derail it. I know that's hard to hear but it's
>>>>>> true. I am not
>>>>>> > questioning the sincerity of those involved but the fact is
>>>>>> that the NFB
>>>>>> > has
>>>>>> > been on the wrong, not to mention the losing side, of a lot of battles
>>>>>> > over
>>>>>> > the past few years. Secondly, if the climate has changed to
>>>>>> be against us,
>>>>>> > lets change it back!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Look at what has happened with gay marriage over the past 2
>>>>>> or 3 years.
>>>>>> > The country did an almost complete about face on that issue
>>>>>> over the past
>>>>>> > few years. Any day now, it is probably going to be the law
>>>>>> of the land.
>>>>>> > Whatever you think of gay marriage, you have to admit that was in
>>>>>> > incredible
>>>>>> > turnaround.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > And we have one extraordinarily powerful weapon on our side
>>>>>> -- the truth.
>>>>>> > The truth has strength. It has power. With it, we can win.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [And no, I am not running for President of the NFB.]
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On 06/17/2015 09:36 PM, Larry Wayland via nfb-talk wrote:
>>>>>> >> It was a state law passed in Arkansas. You are right, you don't know
>>>>>> >> me and it sure looked as though you were attacking me directly. I
>>>>>> >> don't know what you see im my message that looks like a defeatist
>>>>>> >> attitude. I just said the laws are in place and they are not really
>>>>>> >> doing any good. It looks as though the companies are just ignoring
>>>>>> >> them. I agree with you about being knocked down a thousand
>>>>>>times. It
>>>>>> >> sure seems that way sometimes, and you are right we should not ever
>>>>>> >> accept
>>>>>> > defeat.
>>>>>> >> Larry
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> .
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John
>>>>>> >> Heim via nfb-talk
>>>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:10 PM
>>>>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> >> Cc: John Heim
>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Climate
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> First of all, your message is too vague for me to respond to in any
>>>>>> >> meaningful way. What law are you talking about?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Secondly, when I said "you", I didn't mean you personally. I meant
>>>>>> >> everyone in the NFB. That should have been obvious. For all I know
>>>>>> >> you personally arere on 18 boards of directors and are the
>>>>>> president of
>>>>>> >> 23
>>>>>> > non-profits.
>>>>>> >> That's not the point.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On the other hand, you personally are responsible for helping to
>>>>>> >> prepetuate this defeatist attitude. We can't win if we
>>>>>> tell ourselves
>>>>>> >> we are beaten before we even start. I personally will never
>>>>>> accept that.
>>>>>> >> I don't care if I get knocked down a thousand times, I intend to keep
>>>>>> >> fighting. And I'll tell you, with iavit.org, sometimes I feel like
>>>>>> >> it's at least a thousand times already.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On 06/17/2015 08:52 PM, Larry Wayland via nfb-talk wrote:
>>>>>> >>> I did, we worked hard and got a law passed and it worked
>>>>>> great for 15
>>>>>> >> years.
>>>>>> >>> Then a new administration came along and repealed the law. The law
>>>>>> >>> was used to successfully sue the state. If we could have
>>>>>> gotten other
>>>>>> >>> states to pass a similar law it would have worked great, but other
>>>>>> >>> states were not able to pass a similar law so companies just refused
>>>>>> >>> to update the software we sued over so the reps thought they had to
>>>>>> >>> repeal the law to protect the state from other law suits. If other
>>>>>> >>> states had passed similar laws they would have been forced to make
>>>>>> >>> their software accessible and we would not be in this situation. So
>>>>>> >>> maybe you need to get off your butt! and get some laws
>>>>>> passed your self!
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of John
>>>>>> >>> Heim via nfb-talk
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 8:18 PM
>>>>>> >>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> >>> Cc: John Heim
>>>>>> >>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Climate (was: Medical feeding tube not
>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>> >>> to a
>>>>>> >>> member)
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> So what are you going to do about it? The problem I have with this
>>>>>> >>> attitude is that it is so often used as an excuse to not try. Just
>>>>>> >>> stop it! Stop! Get off your butts and get to work. Pass a resolution
>>>>>> >>> demanding accessible medical devices and then move heaven and earth
>>>>>> >>> to get the law passed. And if you fail, try again only try harder.
>>>>>> >>> And if you fail again, try harder still!
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> This is how the world is changed. It's not changed by sitting around
>>>>>> >>> and talking about how hard it is to change the world.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On 06/17/2015 07:34 PM, Larry Wayland via nfb-talk wrote:
>>>>>> >>>> Yes we have those laws, and yet almost all TV systems
>>>>>> are still not
>>>>>> >>>> accessible. Blind people are still having trouble with
>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>> >>>> in schools and with their jobs. I agree that the political climate
>>>>>> >>>> is not good for passing good solid laws at this time and I think it
>>>>>> >>>> will be a while before we see any serious improvement.
>>>>>> >>>> Larry
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> >>>> John Heim via nfb-talk
>>>>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 5:39 PM
>>>>>> >>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> >>>> Cc: John Heim
>>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Medical feeding tube not accessible to a
>>>>>> >>>> member
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> In recent years, Congress has given us an improved ADA and the
>>>>>> >>>> Twenty-First Century Communications and Video
>>>>>> Accessibility Act. The
>>>>>> >>>> Supreme Court signed off on accessible currency. I don't think the
>>>>>> >>>> political climate is anywhere near the impediment to progress that
>>>>>> >>>> you
>>>>>> >>> make it out to be.
>>>>>> >>>> On 06/17/2015 03:41 PM, Mike Freeman via nfb-talk wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>> IMO it will require Congressional action to mandate accessibility
>>>>>> >>>>> -- something I deem highly unlikely in the current
>>>>>> political climate.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Mike
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>>>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> >>>>> Ken Chrane via nfb-talk
>>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:29 PM
>>>>>> >>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> >>>>> Cc: Ken Chrane
>>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Medical feeding tube not accessible to a
>>>>>> >>>>> member
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Greetings Fellow Federationists:
>>>>>> >>>>> An issue of this kind may be brought up at our upcoming NFB
>>>>>> >>>>> Convention in Orlando, Florida.
>>>>>> >>>>> Please pass the word around.
>>>>>> >>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Ken Chrane
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>>>> From: Ken Chrane via nfb-talk
>>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 4:23 PM
>>>>>> >>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> >>>>> Cc: Ken Chrane
>>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Medical feeding tube not accessible to a
>>>>>> >>>>> member
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>>>> From: Roanna Bacchus via nfb-talk
>>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:07 PM
>>>>>> >>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> >>>>> Cc: Roanna Bacchus
>>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Medical feeding tube not accessible to a
>>>>>> >>>>> member
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Hi Jason thanks for your message. I do not know if there is a
>>>>>> >>>>> machine for feeding that is accessible to the blind. I've never
>>>>>> >>>>> heard of medical tubes being accessible to the blind. This is an
>>>>>> >>>>> interesting issue for your member.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> >>>>> for
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/kenneth.chran
>>>>>> >>>>> e
>>>>>> >>>>> %
>>>>>> >>>>> 4
>>>>>> >>>>> 0veriz
>>>>>> >>>>> on.net
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> >>>>> for
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/kenneth.chran
>>>>>> >>>>> e
>>>>>> >>>>> %
>>>>>> >>>>> 4
>>>>>> >>>>> 0veriz
>>>>>> >>>>> on.net
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> >>>>> for
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.
>>>>>> >>>>> c
>>>>>> >>>>> o
>>>>>> >>>>> m
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> >>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> >>>>> for
>>>>>> >>>> nfb-talk:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.
>>>>>> >>>>> net
>>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>>> >>>> John Heim
>>>>>> >>>> john at johnheim.com
>>>
>>> David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
>>>E-Mail: dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org
a David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail: dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org
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