[Nfb-web] NFB-WEB Sandbox

Fri Mar 6 23:13:41 UTC 2009

Gary, this is a great post.  I do web programming for an advertising agency, 
and my job focuses pretty much exclusively on programming and data 
manipulation/cleanup.  I always have my pages looked over and usually 
changed, sometimes substantially, by a sighted colleague.  I still think 
there is a place for blind developers, after all a page needs to work before 
it can be designed, and perhaps templates like druple can help, but if a 
blind person thinks he can design a site totally on his or her own he or she 
is kidding themselves.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wunder, Gary" <WunderG at health.missouri.edu>
To: "NFB Webmaster's List" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] NFB-WEB Sandbox


> Hi Susie. I suspect that what you say is very difficult for us to hear,
> but I think the truth of the matter is that the way screen readers
> present Web content to us doesn't really give us much in the way of
> usable information to do our own web design. The way we see things on
> the screen reader makes us believe that we are looking at one long
> wordprocessing document, and very often we have no idea what is located
> on the upper left or the lower right. Even when we know these things, it
> is very difficult, short of doing meticulous calculation, to position
> things so that they proportionately look correct to other people. Add to
> this the issue of graphics, their size, and again, their placement
> relative to other graphics and text, and it is an uphill challenge. I
> know that on the blind programmers list there are people who do quite a
> lot of graphical design, and although they have some rather complicated
> formulas for figuring out what goes where, they admit that, in the end,
> they submit their screens to other people for their opinions and
> manipulation. They concentrate more on the logic behind the screen than
> they do the actual screen layout.
>
> As if all of this weren't enough, I think sometimes we have been content
> to say to ourselves that all the sighted  really want is eye candy, and
> that this is a sign of a decaying world. Be that as it may, I live in
> the world, and for as long as I live in the world I'm going to have to
> play by its rules. If people decide that they want pictures, and if I am
> to write material for them, I've got to figure out a way to incorporate
> those pictures into what I write. I note, with some discomfort, but my
> experience in the classroom today is quite different from what it was 35
> years ago. When I went to college, the blackboard was certainly a
> welcome asset by the professor, but only in very difficult situations
> wasn't used to convey much information. Even this was primarily limited
> to the sciences. The professors I listened to then would probably today
> be called talking heads, for they did not make extensive use of slides,
> and they did not hand out class notes so that one could be more
> comfortable in paying attention to the lecture. Ah, but I see that I am
> drifting
>
> If someone really wants to take exception to the observations you've
> made, I think this would be a wonderful place for it, but I think the
> proof has to be in the pudding, and the truth is that, more often than
> not, I hear people say that we have wonderful informational content, but
> that often they are put off by the way our site looks and have to have
> an extra special reason to go beyond their negative feelings about how
> differently our sites appear.
>
> Warmest regards my friend,
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO
> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 1:26 PM
> To: NFB Webmaster's List
> Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] NFB-WEB Sandbox
>
> I totally agree. I am trying to help my career along, but I don't
> exactly know what to do. I am reading a Java book. I evaluate web pages
> for work, but I don't know what I really believe about blind people
> making pages that sighted folks like. By this, I am especially meaning
> totally blind folks. Now, please don't any of you get offended because
> that is not what I want to do. I think we are getting into the area
> where sighted assistance is needed. That being said, I think we should
> understand how pages are made and what makes a good page. I know at my
> work we have templates because they need a uniform look and feel.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Gary Wunder
> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 7:51 AM
> To: NFB Webmaster's List
> Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] NFB-WEB Sandbox
>
> I am a programmer but I know for a fact that programming concepts are
> sometimes hard to get offered from a sighted perspective - how does a
> blind person really do Object Oriented Programming and layout a good
> Graphical
>
> User Interface. I think we have a good idea here. I don't think it is a
> national Youth Slam offering but I think there are many of us who could
> benefit here. Not only is the instruction helpful, but some of us would
> benefit from the structure of promising to read pages X through Y by
> date Z.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arnold Bailey" <arnoldbail at gmail.com>
> To: "NFB Webmaster's List" <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] NFB-WEB Sandbox
>
>
>> Mike.
>>
>> Thanks to Everett and yourself for the comments.
>>
>> My interest in Drupal is twofold.
>>
>>   1. Curiosity and to expand my knowledge.
>>   2. I have this vision of creating a platform to draw blind and
> visually
>>   impaired students into investigating programming as a career. It
> would
>> be
>>   great if it was at a national level; but, a chapter level is ok.
> With
>> 70%
>>   unemployment in our community, there is obviously a great need. I
> must
>>   admit, though, that, other than Peter D,, I've found zero support.
> But,
>> I
>>   can't give up the vision without feeling I've let down a lot of
> kids.
>> The
>>   Drupal development platform and learning support activities that it
>>   requires, I think, is a great learning mechanism.
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Michael Hansen <mhansen4 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Arnold,
>>>
>>> Everett is correct. My thought on the matter would be how much do you
>>> want the ISP to take care of versus how much are you the Admin
> willing
>>> to take care of?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> ---
>>> Mike Hansen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 9:20 AM, E.J. Zufelt <everett at zufelt.ca>
> wrote:
>>> > Good morning,
>>> >
>>> > If the ISP supports mysQL and PHP it takes about 20 minutes to
> install
>>> > Drupal for a hosting account.
>>> >
>>> > HTH,
>>> > Everett
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 4-Mar-09, at 8:37 AM, Arnold Bailey wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Mike,
>>> >>
>>> >> Very nice work. I did notice that in firefox the navigation side
> bar
>>> >> is
>>> >> located into the center of the webmasters sandbox page. In IE it's
>
>>> >> fine.
>>> >>
>>> >> One question I have. Is there any thoughts given to affiliate and
>>> chapters
>>> >> usage of drupal? It seems like it would make sense for the
> affiliate
>>> >> and
>>> >> chapters to pull a drupal theme and NFB applications and use them
> on
>>> their
>>> >> site, The problem is that drupal is not usually found on most
> ISPs. I
>>> >> would
>>> >> think that a single ISP that has drupal support would be cost
>>> effectively
>>> >> justified.
>>> >>
>>> >> Arnold
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Michael Hansen
> <mhansen4 at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> The Sandbox is now up and running on our website. If you want to
> play
>>> >>> around with a drupal install and not have to worry about breaking
>>> >>> something there is one there for you. If you want to experiment
> with
>>> >>> other things just create a sub directory off of the root and dorp
> in
>>> >>> your code. Complete login information is posted on our website.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Let me know if you have questions.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Mike
>>> >>> ---
>>> >>> Mike Hansen
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>
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>>> >
>>> >
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