[Nfb-web] Druple vs WordPress a hobbiest's perspective

Thu Aug 6 19:26:57 UTC 2015

Hi Brian,  It was I who said you need to know php to use views.  That's been my limited experience.  Others such as Tilar disagree with me and say there is no php required to use views.  So, I clearly need to do some more reading and practicing on my Drupal site.  As far as html goes, you definitely need that to get the most out of drupal.  I'm sure some one uses a wysiwyg trupal editor here very happily, but to me it just seems easier to thump in the html.

I guess I would say that even if you are very well skilled in php and html, as well as JS and CSS, using a CMS does a number of things for you.  First, it saves you time in the long run.  Maybe not so much in the early stages of planning and design, but definitely in the support and upgrade fazes.

Second, it ficilitates colaboration. Especially with drupal, it sets up security very seemlessly for you and makes it easy for you to assign users to tasks with appropriate permissions.  This would take you a long time to replicate manually even if you were very skilled.

Third, and perhapse most important from a blind user perspective, it uses templates to format your content in a mannor pleasing to the eye for any one who can see it.  Creating visually appealing webpages is a big chalenge for blind developers.  It's by no means impossible, but takes considerably more time and effort as well as having to be proofed by the sighted numerous times to prevent slipapge.  A CMS definitely takes a bunch of the guesswork out of the visuals.  It's by no means foolproof, but it does allow you to focus more on the content and less on how things look.  Plus, it generally makes correcting visuals much easier as one change will automatically be reflected across the site.

There are other advantages too.  I mean, there are hundreds of cms out there and many millions of people of all skill levels using them.  I think it's fare to say that a good cms offers more than a drag and drop replacement for coding.

Hope this helps.

> On Aug 6, 2015, at 3:06 PM, Bryan Schulz via Nfb-web <nfb-web at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I thought you said views were more complicated and that is where you get
> into needing to know php and wonder if those are visual like creating vb
> forms.
> So is drupal basically for people who don't know how or have the time to
> code html/php/js?
> Bryan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nfb-web [mailto:nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
> Tyler via Nfb-web
> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 1:53 PM
> To: NFB Webmaster's List
> Cc: Littlefield, Tyler
> Subject: Re: [Nfb-web] Druple vs WordPress a hobbiest's perspective
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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> 
> Can you explain your analogy a bit better? I'm confused how you're
> relating views to controls.
> 
> On 8/6/2015 2:47 PM, Bryan Schulz via Nfb-web wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Out of curiosity, would you say a view is similar to creating a
>> vb.net form like drag/dropping controls where you want? For someone
>> who can create content with html/php, css, js, mysql what is the 
>> difference/benefit of using drupal? Bryan
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Nfb-web
>> [mailto:nfb-web-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler
>> via Nfb-web Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 10:36 AM To: NFB
>> Webmaster's List Cc: Littlefield, Tyler Subject: Re: [Nfb-web]
>> Druple vs WordPress a hobbiest's perspective
>> 
>> Hello: Drupal never has required a working knowledge of PHP code.
>> Unless you plan to write/edit/update modules. There are a lot of
>> tools that let you get outside of your usual drupal site in the
>> form of modules (like views). You don't need to use views API,
>> there's a manager that works perfectly and is what I generally
>> use.
>> 
>> You do need php code when you start editing/updating/changing
>> modules, or adding things via the API, but this is the case for
>> Wordpress, as well.
>> 
>> Drupal and it's ideas can be a bit to wrap your head around, but
>> once you do (especially if you can administrate Wordcpress) there
>> shouldn't be any reason why you can't update and add your own
>> content, especially if views and content types are used as they
>> should be.
>> 
>> Wordpress also has e-cart modules, but I generally tend to prefer 
>> Drupal. I don't need to do extra work to make it feel like a
>> not-blog.
>> 
>> I recently created this site: http://acbstudents.net I moved a lot
>> of content over, but this is the basic idea of what I'm aiming for.
>> The announcements are in a view, which I did from within the web
>> panel. Content is a bit lacking, but it's a great example of what I
>> wanted to do. Also FWIW, it's possible to manage views via drush,
>> which makes me all kinds of excited as it's really easy to do.
>> 
>> While I recommend Drupal itself for websites, i also recommend it
>> for organizations that need to allow people in an organization to
>> upload and edit content. With Drupal, I can grant very fine
>> controls to my users which says exactly what they can do; this
>> allows me to give someone access to edit the site without them
>> being able to edit everything. This is most useful, for example in
>> an organization like ACBStudents, where I can give individual
>> committee chairs access to edit their pages, public announcements,
>> etc. The secretary will have the ability to create and add minutes
>> and post global announcements.
>> 
>> HTH, On 8/6/2015 10:52 AM, erik burggraaf via Nfb-web wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>> 
>>> I'm one of the hobbiests.  I know enough to break stuff but have
>>> to do a lot of googling to fix anything and even then things
>>> still elude me.  I work on two sites:
>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnevada.org <http://www.nfbnevada.org/> and 
>>> http://www.inclusiveandroid.com
>>> <http://www.inclusiveandroid.com/>
>> 
>>> I also worked on the back end for this site. 
>>> http://www.markvillephysiotherapy.com 
>>> <http://www.markvillephysiotherapy.com/>
>> 
>>> Inclusiveandroid is done in drupal.  NFB Nevada is done in
>>> pmwiki, and markville physiotherapy is done in wordpress.
>> 
>>> There are four people working on inclusive android, one of whom
>>> is a full time web developer.  Our web developer wanted drupal
>>> and there was no one with more experience to gainsay him.  He set
>>> up a nice site, but when it came time to display our content, it 
>>> transpired that this supposedly experienced individual had no 
>>> working knowledge of the views module.  So, our team, (he),
>>> ended up paying for 30 hours of contract work to create  the
>>> views for one area of our huge site plus clean up some of his
>>> code.  As an administrater of this site, I can absolutely publish
>>> and moderate content and sort'a work on the ocasionald site
>>> feature, but I definitely wouldn't be able to finish the project
>>> on my own if our webmaster were to up and leave.
>> 
>>> I'm happier with the work I did on markville physiotherapy.  I
>>> had to turn a lot of crud on and off so that it would look like
>>> a website not a blog and so that various features would be
>>> accessible on the back end.  At the end of the day, we had
>>> something the customer and I were both confident with and he has
>>> good people to support him and help him keep it updated.
>> 
>>> Both of these options absolutely require knowledge of html
>>> markup. This is one of the first skills I acquired on my first
>>> windows pc back in 1999, so I was up for it.  On top of that,
>>> Drupal requires a working knowledge of php code.
>> 
>>> When I took on the NFB of Nevada I needed a cms that did not 
>>> require a working knowledge of html because of I have a need to 
>>> teach people of varying skill levels to publish on the site.
>>> Enter PM wiki which really is the closest thing to a html'less
>>> cms I can imagine.  I, as a hobbiest with my limited knowledge of
>>> PHP could get in and do what needs doing based on the excellent
>>> documentation provided.  PM wiki is highly extensible, light
>>> weight, collaborative, easy to teach and easy to learn.  The docs
>>> are fantastic.  There is an email list just like this one for
>>> pmwiki users where people have been more or less willing to help
>>> when I got stuck.  Eventualy the NFB nevada site will offer
>>> online membership management, online purchasing of novelty items
>>> such as t-shirts, online registration for workshops, conventions
>>> and seminars, and online application for scholarships.  PMwiki
>>> and Drupal both offer us all of this in their way, but wordpress
>>> as far as I know, does not.  I haven't explore d all of the
>>> modules and some one will surely correct me if I'm wrong here,
>>> but I don't often see wordpress being used in this way.
>> 
>>> PMWiki has a few  main drawbacks.  There are security issues.
>>> You do have to install an account log in and sign up process
>>> from scratch as well as manually set permission on groups, pages
>>> and actions.  THis is a time consuming process and not for the
>>> faint of heart.  Drupal and wordpress really do a nice job of
>>> taking care of this for you on the back end unless you want
>>> something very specific.
>> 
>>> Updates: These are frequent, I'd say on average one every couple
>>> of months which address security issues and php compatibility
>>> issues. Extensions on the other hand are often many years out of
>>> date and abandoned by their developers.  This leads to
>>> compatibility issues not easily fixed by one with limitted
>>> knowledge of php.
>> 
>>> When I say a few, I guess I meant two.  Those are the ones that 
>>> really jump out at me as I write this.
>> 
>>> With respect to Gabe, I don't recall seeing him at the
>>> webmasters committee meeting or reading his name in the
>>> attendence.  I've also never seen any of his work and can't
>>> comment on it; However, I found the webmasters meeting to be very
>>> professional in terms of the ideas put fourth, the presentations
>>> offered, and so on.  I don't know most of the people here, and we
>>> don't talk very much, but I don't think there's a need to call
>>> out the professionalism of the group.  As a non-professional, I'm
>>> a bit put off by the comment.
>> 
>>> To address Peter's questions directly, I as a non-professional
>>> only use mac voiceover and NVDA.  NVDA has had the most reliable
>>> web support for probably three years now.  I wouldn't really use 
>>> anythning else on windows unless an employer bought it for me
>>> and told me to use it.  Jaws is alright for some very specific
>>> tasks, but to me represents a complete waste of money for general
>>> use in the current market.  Of course, I feel the same way about 
>>> window-eyes and hal and even system access seems like a stretch. 
>>> Let's go with NVDA all other things being equal.
>> 
>>> As to which is better, drupal or wordress, I believe they are 
>>> geared towards different skill levels and different website
>>> needs. So, it would be helpful to know what your needs are for us
>>> to make a good recommendation.  If you are building a website for
>>> an NFB affiliate, then I would ask the group about the nfb
>>> template designs which were up for discussion at the webmasters
>>> meeting. Having a template and modules for drupal pre-configured
>>> to meet the needs of most NFB affiliates would catapolt Drupal
>>> into the lead as a platform for developing for the NFB.  I would
>>> even consider porting our pmwiki site over if the feature set is
>>> close to what we want.
>> 
>>> Let us know what you're looking for in a site, and we'll try to 
>>> help you figure out what meets your needs.
>> 
>>> Best,
>> 
>>> Erik
>>>> On Aug 5, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Peter Feysa, III. via Nfb-web 
>>>> <nfb-web at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I have been reading the latest email messages from this list
>>>> and it seems like you favor Druple over WordPress. Please tell
>>>> me the pros and cons. I am trying to decide which is best.
>>>> Alsok, which screen reader works best with the two? NVDA or
>>>> JAWS?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> 
>>>> Peter Michael Feysa, III.
>>>> 
>>>> Executor Director of Emerald Coast Lighthouse
>>>> 
>>>> MCSE, MCP, CIW, A+ CompTIA
>>>> 
>>>> Bachelor of Arts International Studies / Computer Science
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> <http://www.eclfb.org/> Emerald Coast Lighthouse for the
>>>> Blind, Inc.
>>>> 
>>>> `
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
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> om
>> 
>>>> 
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