[Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
Mary Willows
mwillows at sbcglobal.net
Wed Feb 10 03:51:28 UTC 2010
Thank you, Jim. That is enough of this thread.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
To: "NFB of California List" <nfbc-info at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
>I would strong argue that are experiences do not prove otherwise.
>
> I understand that there have been some spats along the way, but the
> NFB and the ACB have rarely clashed with each other over the last 25
> years.
>
> Compare that with our clashes with the National Acreditation Cuncil,
> The FAA, the Social Security Administration, the U.S Department of
> Education, and various state licensing agencies.
>
> Understanding why the ACB split away from us, and understanding how our
> philosophy differs from theirs are very good things. So is
> understanding why we don't bother bickering with them.
>
> Jim
>
> On Tue, Feb 09, 2010 at 07:46:41PM -0600, Peter Donahue wrote:
>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>
>> Our own experience has proved otherwise.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
>> To: "NFB of California List" <nfbc-info at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 5:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
>>
>>
>> Peter, this is going too far in the other direction.
>>
>> This kind of ranker does *not* help the cause of the organized blind,
>> I've heard many people (including Dr. Jernigan) agree with this.
>>
>> The ACB has their philosophy, and we have ours. We should work hard
>> to advocate for what we believe in, and not talk down other
>> organizations.
>>
>> We need to acknowledge our differences and move on, not spend time
>> attacking other organizations.
>>
>> As for helping Chris, the point has been made multiple times that we
>> are willing to help, but feel that we have a responsibility to wait
>> and see what happens before offering.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 09, 2010 at 04:02:41PM -0600, Peter Donahue wrote:
>> > Good afternoon everyone,
>> >
>> > You don't know the ways of the ACB as those of us who have been
>> > around
>> > the organized blind do. They have their own guide dog user group. Let
>> > them
>> > get help from them. I'm not at all that enthused at bending over
>> > backward
>> > to
>> > help that crew only to have them attempt to destroy our exhibit booth
>> > at a
>> > local blindness fair. That's exactly what happened last year. I know
>> > because
>> > I saw it happen. We almost had them expelled from the exhibission hall.
>> > Several of our chapter members brought notetakers which were almost
>> > damaged
>> > by their behavior and subsequent actions.
>> >
>> > Before you comment any further read your history concerning the NFB
>> > and
>> > the ACB. While the incident is unfortunate we have better things to do
>> > with
>> > our funds than to spend it on those who through their organization
>> > would
>> > undermine our initiatives, attempt to destroy our property, and
>> > otherwise
>> > do
>> > all they can to create the kind of discrimination we're working hard to
>> > eliminate.
>> >
>> > Peter Donahue
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Aziza" <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com>
>> > To: "NFB of California List" <nfbc-info at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 12:15 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
>> >
>> >
>> > Agreed.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Darian Smith" <dsmithnfb at gmail.com>
>> > To: "NFB of California List" <nfbc-info at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 12:00 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
>> >
>> >
>> > > This situation is not only unfortunate an frustrating, but
>> > > absolutely out of line.
>> > > I have a few thoughts, if I may:
>> > > 1. a very frustrating thing is it seems as if Law enforcement knows
>> > > not it's responsibility to enforce all of the laws it must. It
>> > > almost seems as if Police officers and the like have no
>> > > understanding of the ADA and/or how to operate around individuals
>> > > with disabilities.
>> > >
>> > > 2. in addition to the information given, would it not be wise to
>> > > include Shannon Dillon's contact information- as she is the current
>> > > president of cagdu-- the state where this all took place is in
>> > > california, after all.
>> > > Also, what's the harm in having either Mary willows/ Chuck
>> > > Krugman, or both contact these individuals as needed?
>> > > somehow, I'm thinking it does not matter if they were members of
>> > > ACB, NFV or PETA; the main thing is that these indivviduals should
>> > > be
>> > > made aware that not only do they have resources, but actual people-
>> > > people in state that can support them should they need it.
>> > > Please forgive my corniness, but these people are blind people
>> > > like you and I, they have been treated unfairly and unjustly by
>> > > so-called professionals that are supposed to provide the highest
>> > > quility of service and they've far from done this. We in the NFB
>> > > want first- class citizanship for all blind people and if we truly
>> > > want this, there is little doubt in my mind that we should be
>> > > ready
>> > > and willing to step in as needed.
>> > > just my thoughts,
>> > > Darian
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 2/8/10, Aziza <daydreamingncolor at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> I think by supplying the information we have provided, both in
>> > >> resources
>> > >> and
>> > >> oppinion, the people involved will probably make the right decision
>> > >> as
>> > >> to
>> > >> wehter or not they should go forward in this issue. I believe that
>> > >> at
>> > >> the
>> > >> moment the affiliation does not matter, what matters is that we have
>> > >> done
>> > >> what we can at the moment to provide the information necessary to
>> > >> move
>> > >> forward if they wish to do so. It is up to the parties involved to
>> > >> ask
>> > >> for
>> > >> further assistance if they find it necessary to do so.
>> > >> Aziza
>> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> > >> To: <nfbc-info at nfbnet.org>
>> > >> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 5:42 PM
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> Given the affiliation of the aggrieved parties, perhaps it would be
>> > >>> wise
>> > >>> to ascertain if they wish assistance in putting their case.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Mike Freeman
>> > >>>
>> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>> From: unknown <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
>> > >>> To: "NFB of California List" <nfbc-info at nfbnet.org>
>> > >>> Date: Monday, Feb 8, 2010 17:15:29
>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The appropriate things to do regarding this matter are as follows:
>> > >>>> 1. If the City of Oakland has an ADA coordinator file an official
>> > >>>> complaint
>> > >>>> with the City as if this is a paratransit company under contract
>> > >>>> with
>> > >>>> the
>> > >>>> city to provide paratransit services they are responsible. for
>> > >>>> implementation of service and a need to insure that staff are
>> > >>>> appropriately
>> > >>>> trained. 2. Officially file a complaint with U.S. Department of
>> > >>>> Justice
>> > >>>> as a
>> > >>>> definite ADA violation occurred. The procedures for filing such a
>> > >>>> complaint
>> > >>>> are available at www.ada.gov.
>> > >>>> While it is important to make people aware of what happened change
>> > >>>> can
>> > >>>> only
>> > >>>> occur if official documentation in the form of ADA complaints are
>> > >>>> filed.
>> > >>>> For
>> > >>>> the record I am not aware of any circumstances where a public
>> > >>>> transit
>> > >>>> driver
>> > >>>> can refuse to transport a properly identified service animal. Not
>> > >>>> only
>> > >>>> is
>> > >>>> this clearly a violation of the ADA it is also a violation of
>> > >>>> California
>> > >>>> law
>> > >>>> as well. If needed I can research and furnish the appropriate
>> > >>>> citation.
>> > >>>> Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
>> > >>>> President, NFB Central Valley Chapter
>> > >>>> 1237 P Street
>> > >>>> Fresno ca 93721
>> > >>>> 559-266-9237
>> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>>> From: "Anne Ward" <inland2wards at att.net>
>> > >>>> To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;@smtp127.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com;>
>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 12:29 PM
>> > >>>> Subject: [Nfbc-info] Discrimination in Oakland
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> > This was sent to me this morning by Judith Lesner, who asked me
>> > >>>> > to
>> > >>>> > distribute it widely.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Anne Ward
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Discrimination in Oakland?
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Last night my very good friend Marvelena Quesada was told that
>> > >>>> > she
>> > >>>> > had
>> > >>>> > to
>> > >>>> > "sit in the back of the bus". In this case, an East Bay
>> > >>>> > ParaTransit
>> > >>>> > bus.
>> > >>>> > The person givithng the order was the bus's dispatcher.
>> > >>>> > Marvelena's
>> > >>>> > status that led up to the banishment to the back of the bus was
>> > >>>> > her
>> > >>>> > traveling with Darla. Marvelena is blind and Darla is her
>> > >>>> > seeing
>> > >>>> > eye
>> > >>>> > dog.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > To start at the beginning, Marvelena and her husband Chris Gray
>> > >>>> > came
>> > >>>> > to
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > my
>> > >>>> > house for dinner. They are both blind and Chris is the past
>> > >>>> > president
>> > >>>> > of
>> > >>>> > the American Council of the Blind which is a national consumer
>> > >>>> > group.
>> > >>>> > They had arranged to be picked up by East Bay ParaTransit for a
>> > >>>> > ride
>> > >>>> > home.
>> > >>>> > At about 9:15 they got a call that their ride was outside. I
>> > >>>> > walked
>> > >>>> > out
>> > >>>> > with them to bus number 352. The driver asked if the dog was
>> > >>>> > going
>> > >>>> > along
>> > >>>> > too. Marvelena replied that it was. The driver then decided
>> > >>>> > that
>> > >>>> > her
>> > >>>> > bus
>> > >>>> > was not positioned correctly and drove about a half block down
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > street.
>> > >>>> > By the time we got to her she was on her cell phone and refused
>> > >>>> > entry
>> > >>>> > to
>> > >>>> > Chris and Marvelena, yelling at them through the partially
>> > >>>> > opened
>> > >>>> > door
>> > >>>> > that no one had said anything about a dog and that she had
>> > >>>> > "issues"
>> > >>>> > with
>> > >>>> > dogs. She said they had to wait for another paratransit bus to
>> > >>>> > come
>> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>> > take them. Chris said that they had a legal right to get on the
>> > >>>> > bus
>> > >>>> > with
>> > >>>> > the dog and forced his way through the partially opened door and
>> > >>>> > got
>> > >>>> > on
>> > >>>> > the bus. The driver slammed the door and wouldn't let Marvelena
>> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>> > Darla
>> > >>>> > on the bus.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Meanwhile the driver was speaking to her dispatcher on a speaker
>> > >>>> > phone.
>> > >>>> > That was when the dispatcher made her Solomon like decision to
>> > >>>> > end
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > impasse, "Go take the dog and sit in the back of the bus". I
>> > >>>> > informed
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > driver and dispatcher that it was no longer the 50's where they
>> > >>>> > could
>> > >>>> > get
>> > >>>> > away with that. Chris and Marvelena said that she would not
>> > >>>> > move
>> > >>>> > to
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > back. While this was going on, Marvelena and Darla managed to
>> > >>>> > get
>> > >>>> > on
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > bus. Marvelena was calling paratransit and she and I and
>> > >>>> > another
>> > >>>> > friend
>> > >>>> > were conferring through the open door. At that point the
>> > >>>> > passenger
>> > >>>> > on
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > bus said that she had had it with waiting so long and would walk
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > rest
>> > >>>> > of the way home. She got off the bus and left. The driver
>> > >>>> > reported
>> > >>>> > that
>> > >>>> > the passenger had left the bus because of the dog which was a
>> > >>>> > baldfaced
>> > >>>> > lie. The driver then said that the company was sending another
>> > >>>> > bus
>> > >>>> > to
>> > >>>> > take them home.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > This all went on for some time when the driver closed the doors
>> > >>>> > so
>> > >>>> > that
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > we
>> > >>>> > could no longer talk to Chris and Marvelena, turned out the
>> > >>>> > lights
>> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>> > left the bus. Marvelena and Chris were left alone in a locked
>> > >>>> > bus
>> > >>>> > while
>> > >>>> > the driver walked half a block away and spoke on her cell phone.
>> > >>>> > Chris
>> > >>>> > then called 911 and two Oakland policemen arrived shortly there
>> > >>>> > after.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > One of the police asked my friend and I what was happening. I
>> > >>>> > explained
>> > >>>> > the situation. The policeman said something to the effect that
>> > >>>> > it
>> > >>>> > depended on the bus company's policy. I said that was nonsense.
>> > >>>> > That
>> > >>>> > it
>> > >>>> > had nothing to do with the bus company, it was a federal law
>> > >>>> > called
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > ADA. Marvelena and her dog had the same right of access to
>> > >>>> > public
>> > >>>> > places
>> > >>>> > as Marvelena did on her own. He seemed unaware of the law.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Finally, after the police arrived, another bus arrived to take
>> > >>>> > them
>> > >>>> > home.
>> > >>>> > The altercation took about an hour and involved the waste of two
>> > >>>> > bus
>> > >>>> > drivers' time as well as that of two Oakland police personnel.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Questions that arise:
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > 1.. Why when so many people with disabilities are using service
>> > >>>> > animals
>> > >>>> > does a company whose sole clientele are people with disabilities
>> > >>>> > hire
>> > >>>> > a
>> > >>>> > driver who will not drive a bus with a dog on it?
>> > >>>> > 2.. If the company feels compelled to hire folks who are afraid
>> > >>>> > of
>> > >>>> > dogs,
>> > >>>> > why do they not routinely ask passengers if they are traveling
>> > >>>> > with
>> > >>>> > service animals so that they can send a not-afraid driver?
>> > >>>> > 3.. Why were the driver and the dispatcher not trained by the
>> > >>>> > company
>> > >>>> > to
>> > >>>> > know the laws about access and seeing eye dogs?
>> > >>>> > 4.. Why was the driver not trained in basic courtesy? She
>> > >>>> > routinely
>> > >>>> > yelled at us, slammed doors and at one point told me to "move
>> > >>>> > him."
>> > >>>> > She
>> > >>>> > was referring to Chris. I explained that he was a person and he
>> > >>>> > moved
>> > >>>> > himself, I did not move him.
>> > >>>> > 5.. Why are the Oakland Police not trained in the fundamentals
>> > >>>> > of
>> > >>>> > ADA
>> > >>>> > access laws?
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Issues to note:
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > 1.. Darla was wearing a regulation Seeing Eye harness, did not
>> > >>>> > make
>> > >>>> > any
>> > >>>> > noise, did not show any aggression despite the shouting of the
>> > >>>> > driver
>> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>> > lay on the floor of the bus near Marvelena's feet the entire
>> > >>>> > time.
>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> > Nfbc-info mailing list
>> > >>>> > Nfbc-info at nfbnet.org
>> > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbc-info_nfbnet.org
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>> > >>>> > for
>> > >>>> > Nfbc-info:
>> > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbc-info_nfbnet.org/ckrugman%40sbcglobal.net
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
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>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
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>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Darian Smith
>> > > Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>> > > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>> > > The National Federation of the Blind has launched a nationwide
>> > > teacher
>> > > recruitment campaign to help attract energetic and passionate
>> > > individuals into the field of blindness education, and we need your
>> > > help! To Get Involved go to:
>> > > www.TeachBlindStudents.org
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Nfbc-info mailing list
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>> > > Nfbc-info:
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>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
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