[nfbcs] Window-Eyes and terminal emulation

Thu Jan 29 18:09:32 UTC 2009

Thanks Doug for this very thorough response.  I have saved it for reference.
Tracy

> I have used, and scripted for, Attachmate Extra, Reflection, and
> probably TN3270, all under JAWS.  I have also experimented somewhat
> extensively with Window-Eyes in console environments, though not
> specifically in terminal emulators.
>
> I would first say that how much scripting is required depends greatly
> on what you want done.  Just getting automatic announcements of screen
> changes without such things as constantly spoken session time updates
> is usually not that complicated.  Making a screen reader correctly
> identify field names is more involved, and doing so for tabular data,
> where fields are labeled by column headings, is much more complex.
> There are also the issues of forms with page numbers, fields with
> automatic help text, announcement of error text when it appears even
> if you don't want all screen changes announced ... so as you can see,
> the complexity depends quite a bit on your specific needs and
> interests.
>
> Exactly how the job is done will also depend on the
> application/environment
> you're using.  The terminal emulator itself doesn't decide where
> error messages and form page numbers go, for example; that's up to
> the application you're accessing remotely.  (I in fact recently
> scripted two different terminal emulators to work with the same
> system, and I wrote one set of scripts that adjusts itself to
> whichever terminal emulator is being used.)
>
> As for the JAWS-versus-Window-Eyes question:  Both now have powerful
> scripting languages, with the JAWS language being more procedural and
> the Window-Eyes language more object-oriented.  For a terminal
> application though, I assert that the biggest issue that will
> determine which screen reader is best equipped will not be the
> scripting language but rather the screen reader's ability to detect,
> and provide appropriate script events for, screen changes.  In a
> terminal environment, most of the complexities of window hierarchy,
> MSAA trees, etc. are not applicable since most of the activity of
> interest is in a single window, usually without its own direct MSAA
> support.  It's mostly down to so-called screen-scraping and event
> processing--and the number of possible events is pretty small too.
>
> All that said, my experience indicates that JAWS is currently better
> than Window-Eyes at handling screen change events in Windows console
> applications, but this observation may not carry over to terminal
> emulators since they are not actually "console applications" but are
> Windows apps with console-like windows within them.
>
> If you want to compare screen readers quickly on how they handle your
> situation, I recommend that you load each screen reader, one at a time
> of course, and try these things to see how well they respond.  Do
> these with the screen reader set to announce all screen changes.  For
> these tests, do your best to ignore any extra announcements of time,
> session length, changes in cursor row/column numbers, etc.; these can
> be eliminated with scripting.
>
> 1.  Run through some commands in your remote application that scroll
> results onto the screen without clearing older text, much like a DOS
> command window would do in Windows.  See how well the screen reader
> manages to announce just what is added, and all of what was just
> added, without missing new text or repeating old.
>
> 2.  Try that again but with a clear screen first, so there is no
> scrolling, only added text.  I don't see this problem so much in
> Windows, but it is possible for a screen reader to miss new text when
> the rest of the screen does not move.
>
> 3.  Try a few things that update various parts of a screen, such as in
> a full-screen form, and see again if the screen reader catches the new
> text without missing or doubling anything.
>
> My prediction is this:  If your screen reader of choice has a lot of
> trouble with the above tests, and another one doesn't have so much
> trouble, you're going to have more difficulty scripting yours than the
> other one to do what you want, regardless of all other factors.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:00:49AM -0500, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> Thanks Curtis.
> To make JFW work well with 3270 emulation, I need some fairly complicated
> scripts.  Does Window-Eyes also require scripts, or does it work
> automagically?  Or does it depend on the emulation software being used,
> whether it works well or not?
> I know many people use Extra, but my shop does not.  I think they're using
> Reflections, but I am using TN3270.  Not that I'm totally committed to
> it--I just want something reliable that works with speech.
>
> Tracy
>
>> Tracy:
>>
>> With regard to Window-Eyes, it does work well with terminal emulation,
>> and
>> GW Micro does not charge any extra for things like remote access or
>> putting
>> Window-Eyes on something like a Citrix terminal server.  Also, you don't
>> have to fork out a large chunk of cash to try the program.  I believe
>> you
>> can get in for as little as $39 a month or something like that with no
>> commitment.  Check with GW Micro or check out the Website
>> www.gwmicro.com.
>>
>> NVDA si also worth checking out as is System Access.
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Curtis Chong
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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> --
> Doug Lee                 dgl at dlee.org                http://www.dlee.org
> SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
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