[nfbcs] Anyone had success with SimNet based courses

[Steve Jacobson]

Hopefully this doesn't sound too much like me being up on my soapbox, but Tracy's comments touch on something that 
I've found very important over the past twenty years as I have had to deal with courses as part of my job.  While I 
believe it is very important to push for accessibility of on-line classes, I also believe that the way we access something 
like Excel adds an extra layer to the learning curve.  If one truly wants to learn it for themselves, it may not be as much 
an extra layer as simply a different interface, but it won't be an interface that most on-line classes can address.  
However, if one is going to learn something like Excel using a course that is required for a class and is used by others in 
the class, it can make a lot of sense not to get bogged down in trying to figure out what is accessible and take the 
course with a reader.  This allows one to concentrate on learning the specific software and work out how to access that 
software separate from the on-line class.  This is difficult when one is taking the class from home, I understand that, but I 
don't know a good solution.  Some on-line courses that I've tried actually interface with the software being taught taking 
control of the mouse and keyboard and such, and I have found that such courses often conflict with screen readers or 
are at best confusing.  Other approaches include screen shots which are not visible with screen readers, but even if 
they were accessible would be of little value without knowing what is highlighted and such.  I have found that it is far 
easier for me to figure out the best approach to how to access software if I understand the software first.

Having said all this, I don't know that it is worth struggling with an on-line course for Excel given the fact that there are 
specialized tutorials out there.  If a course is required to get a credit and it is more trouble than it is worth to try to find an 
alternative, then just getting it completed with a reader might be the best approach.

People with more experience than I have with on-line courses for software may have some techniques that will help, and 
I have taken on-line courses through work that teach concepts rather than software that have worked well.  Clearly 
there is going to sometimes be overlap that will allow the innovative student to take an on-line course that some of us 
might not manage, so we need to be open to other opinions and techniques.  However, in the end, we take a class to 
learn the course content and I think it is important to realize that accessibility can sometimes fit in but sometimes add an 
extra layer that can actually get in the way. 

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 08:36:35 -0400 (EDT), Tracy Carcione wrote:

>I had no success at all trying to use an online system to learn Excel,
>because, as Doug says, it displayed the screen people would see, but Jaws
>didn't see anything there.  I then was supposed to answer questions about
>the screen I couldn't see.  I gave up at that point, and found a tutorial
>written for blind people on using Excel.

>I have not had any good experiences with online training, though
>admittedly I haven't done it much.  There always seem to be critical
>elements that don't work with speech, like the Excel screens that are just
>images, or flash movies with inaccessible controls.  I wish there was
>something we could do about this.  I've been trying to get online mandated
>training at my workplace to be made accessible for at least 3 years, and
>nothing has changed.  HR usually just sends a reader over, eventually.
>They can make it sing and dance and talk Spanish, but they can't
> make it accessible?
>Tracy

>> I would be extremely surprised if this works right with any screen
>> reader.  Screen readers tend to rely on MSAA, object models, and
>> off-screen models, all of which are different or entirely missing in a
>> simulated environment, because the simulations tend to focus on
>> simulating the visual elements of a program, not the entire underlying
>> structure of it.  So you might see a web page that visually looks like
>> an Excel spreadsheet, but underneath, it's still a web page, and JAWS
>> and other screen readers will be following the underlying structure
>> and will present you with a view very different than what the actual
>> program would present.
>>
>> All that said, if your goal is just to keep up with the class, not to
>> learn how to use the application with JAWS, you may be able to do
>> that.  The interaction will be different, but the results should be
>> the same, assuming the environment itself is accessible.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 04:27:30PM -0500, Robert Jaquiss wrote:
>> Hello:
>>
>>      As part of my studies, I am supposed to take a self-paced class in
>> Excel. The class uses something called SimNet by McGraw Hill. The
>> student buys this "card" and can then log onto a site where various
>> Microsoft products are simulated. Anyone had luck using JAWS with
>> this? Thank you.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert
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>> SSB BART Group           doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
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