[nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
John G. Heim
jheim at math.wisc.edu
Mon Nov 14 02:44:57 UTC 2011
Well, given the way you put it, getting what you pay for, then linux
is one heck of a bargain. I'm not saying the screen reader for the
linux graphical user interface, orca, is as good as jaws. But for
free, it is pretty darn good. I use it all the time, every day.
The screen reader for the character user interface, speakup, is even
better. In fact, I would say that speakup is the best screen reader
out there. It it rock solid and does everything you need. Of course,
its probably easier to write a screen reader for character mode than
for a GUI. But speakup has been included on the debian linux
installation disk for years so if you had a hardware speech synth, you
could get a talking install. The newest version of the debian linux
installation CD has software speech so you don't even need a hardware
synth. When do you think Microsoft will be coming up with a talking
installation disk for Windows? Don't hold your breath.
n Nov 13, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Mike Jolls wrote:
> Mike:
>
> As I say, I have Ubuntu loaded on a laptop. I'm going to try and
> spend some
> time checking it out to see how good it is.
>
> Yes, I would in general agree that you get what you pay for. I
> recall once
> I purchased a program (I think it was $20) which was supposed to
> write code
> for you and save you time in programming. Well, it did write code,
> but the
> program it wrote was such that it was a shell of a shell of a
> shell. In
> other words, it only wrote enough code to say .. "see, I wrote you a
> very
> small program ... now you do the remaining 95% of the work". So,
> yeah, I
> hear you. I'm hoping the Ubuntu is different. I could be wrong as
> you say.
> If I am, at least I'm not out any money.
>
> Thanks for responding
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:56 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>
> Mike:
>
> I'm sure Curtis Willoughby would agree with you. I certainly like
> Linux from
> a console. But the realist in me says that you get the sort of
> support you
> pay for. Hence, since Ubuntu is free, you get just about that amount
> of
> support guaranteed.
>
> Even in noncapatlist societies, Robert Heinline's dictum holds sway:
> TANSTAAFL -- There Ain't No such thing As A Free Lunch!
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Mike Jolls
> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 3:58 AM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>
> I would have to agree with your statement that prices for adaptive
> technology will likely never go down because we are such a small
> market.
> That is, if you're looking at it from a profit/cost perspective. We
> do, of
> course, live in a capitalistic society and that keeps the prices
> high. Now,
> if someone comes along and develops something because it's something
> blind
> people need and they aren't concerned so much about making a
> profit ... but
> rather helping the blind community ... then we might have a chance at
> getting products that aren't so costly.
>
> Take, for example, the Ubuntu (Linux - I think it's Orca) operating
> system
> that has the screen reader and magnification built right in. The O/
> S is
> free. It's not like Windows where you have adaptive products such as
> ZoomText ($500) and Jaws ($1000) that run on top of the O/S and you
> have to
> buy these products separately to run with the O/S. Someone got the
> idea
> that blind people ought to be able to "see" for free, just like
> normally
> sighted people can. So there are people out there that are generous
> who
> aren't just purely interested in making a profit but would be
> willing to
> provide products just because they are needed. Imagine what life
> would be
> like if Louis Braille had said ... "Gee, I'll come up with Braille
> but only
> if I make a profit". Where would we be then?
>
> By the way, I know nothing about Ubuntu/Linux yet, but am on a
> discovery
> quest to see how viable that O/S is. I have a laptop with Orca
> installed
> and I want to see how many applications have been developed for that
> O/S.
> Perhaps we have something here that could be a replacement for
> Windows.
> Perhaps we have, in Ubuntu, a way that rehab organizations can provide
> computers to blind people at a lower cost.
>
> So, I think it's possible that technology may not always be price
> prohibitive. We just have to find the right people that are
> philanthropic
> and more interested in getting the technology produced because it
> needs to
> be done.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:34 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>
> When I first began to write for computers -- first in FORTRAN and
> then in an
> assembler -- I, too, did not have speech. We used punch cards for
> input (and
> occasionally I used the console typewriter which was an IBM
> Selectric) and I
> either had someone read my output or, later on, I and a couple of
> other guys
> discovered that the console lights would make an FM radio make
> noises as
> they operated and if you programmed right, you could get tones so we
> did
> some more programming using typewriter interrupts as counters and
> got the
> thing to send Morse code thru the radio and I got my output that way.
>
> Those were the days.
>
> I'm afraid, though, that I'm going to have to disappoint Tami by
> saying that
> the cost of adaptive tech will never go down very much -- at least for
> sophisticated adaptive tech such as screen-readers -- because there
> are too
> few of us to really bring economies of scale to the creation process.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Doug Lee
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:50 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>
> Wow. I had occasion to write machine code in hex without an
> assembler, but
> at least I had speech. 1983, that was...
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 09:44:50PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
> Tami:
>
> Most of us don't have a clue as to how far things have come. Chuck
> Hallenbeck told me that when he started using computers in the early
> 1970's,
> he first had to write an assembler program with out speech or any
> kind of
> assistive technology, and once that was done, he had to use the
> assembler to
> write a program to make the computer talk -- in its crude way.
>
> The first computer I saw, that was semi-accessible, had to be taught
> how to
> pronounce each and every word, or it would spell. Chuck and I of
> course
> taught it how to say "beer."
>
> Dave
>
> At 08:52 AM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
>> Heavens! No one can accuse you of not being dedicated.
>>
>> The more war stories I hear from those like you who did all the heavy
>> duty ground breaking back in the day when assistive technology didn't
>> really exist,, the more I realize how easy we have it now.
>> The tech still lags, but it is there and gaining ground. The price of
>> the really good stuff is still a barrier in the face of recalcitrant
>> agencies and schools, but it is now possible for us non-print readers
>> to compete much more fully with our sighted peers than even just a
>> handful of years ago. There are more options available, too,. The
>> cost
>> barrier is still pretty daunting, but...
>> Sooner or later that is going to have to change. The more students
>> and
>> professionals who push through those remaining barriers, the closer
>> we
>> come to freer access to those technical wonders we need to compete
>> and
>> excel and still have time left over to sleep now and then. /smile/
>> The
>> dramatic increase in efficiency is a real difference-maker in the
>> competitive arena. So, then, the greater competitiveness of every
>> single individual who uses it in school and work and daily life
>> will go
>> a long way at chipping through those ridiculous low expectations
>> people
>> still insist on laying on us.
>> Wider access to communications technology and social media will, I
>> think, have a growing impact on the low expectations some accept from
>> hearing them every time they attempt to get resources, too.
>> Well, that is a hope of mine, anyway. /smile/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> e
>>
>> On 11/08/2011 12:54 PM, Doug Lee wrote:
>>> I have done programming via just speech for most of 20 years, but I
>>> find Braille displays very helpful for a few tasks. Mostly, they
>>> speed
>>> up the process of tracing indent levels, as has already been
>>> mentioned.
>>>
>>> To be fair, I should say that perhaps the reason I use speech almost
>>> to the exclusion of Braille is that, when I started out in
>>> programming, it was my only realistic choice. I used to braille
>>> program listings onto paper with Braille printers, but that's so
>>> much
>>> slower than a modern Braille display even now. I seem to recall
>>> spending a good afternoon Brailling out the entire TexTalker.blind
>>> speech program in Assembly language on an Apple once, to the tune of
>>> about 60 pages I think, using a Cranmer modified Perkins Brailler,
>>> which probably put out less than seven lines a minute and required
>>> manual loading of each page... but we're way past all that now.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 08, 2011 at 12:35:38PM -0800, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>> Aaron,
>>>
>>> I've been dragging my feet getting back into programming because I
>>> haven't managed to get a braille display, and trying to get started
>>> again using speech only makes me crazy. Also, Hearing code read to
>>> me
>>> sounds like incomprehensible gibberish. I'm starting to just suck it
>>> up and set aside time regularly to practice listening to code and
>>> path
>>> names for linux config files or terminal commands, but... It's
>>> coming
>>> slowly for me.
>>>
>>> My own queries around and about indicate that most professional
>>> programmers find the 80-cell display to be their best option. My
>>> former employer was prepared to purchase one for me when I was
>>> losing
>>> the ability to read print, only we needed the VR agency to get
>>> someone
>>> out for an onsite evaluation and more information about the
>>> technical
>>> details, so... I hope they found someone good to do that job when I
>>> had to give it up because I couldn't read and the agency still
>>> couldn't get anyone out there. Sigh. The price of an 80-cell then,
>>> as
>>> now, is around $10k.
>>>
>>> A 40-cell is around $5k, although I guess the Focus is only $4k
>>> these
>>> days... There are rumors that prices will start to come down soon,
>>> so
>>> I'm waiting for that with bated breath.
>>>
>>> You're the third person I've ever heard of who does programming with
>>> speech only. /smile/ So I'm sure there must be others. You've bummed
>>> me out because if other people can program with speech only, then I
>>> don't have any excuse to put off learning to do that myself, do i?
>>> /grin/
>>>
>>> I would say you're dead on about efficiency. I can only guess for
>>> myself, but there do seem to be a lot of little tasks or bits of
>>> tasks
>>> that involve squirrelling around with the screen reader that people
>>> who use braille just read with their fingers... My assumptions on my
>>> expectations for improved efficiency are also based on the simple
>>> fact
>>> that even as a pretty new braille reader, I recall waht I read
>>> through
>>> my fingers much more accurately and clearly than I do what I hear
>>> read
>>> to me... I'm getting better due to experience but ... That's not
>>> saying much. /smile/ Proofing is also more time consuming and also
>>> fatiguing for me. That could be mostly just me and how I respond
>>> conceptually to the spoken word as opposed to the read word... My
>>> fingers do a much better job for me at replacing my eyeballs than do
>>> my ears.
>>>
>>> I don't know if that is helpful, but I thought I would throw it out
>>> since I'm in a similar place.
>>>
>>> I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone else has to say. /
>>> smile/
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 11/08/2011 06:46 AM, Aaron Cannon wrote:
>>>> Hi all.
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering how many programmers use a braille display? I have
>>>> been programming for the past several years, but I've never tried
>>>> to
>>>> use a braille display. Do you feel that it makes you more
>>>> efficient?
>>>> If so, how exactly?
>>>>
>>>> I assume the larger the display, the better?
>>>>
>>>> Any advice would be appreciated. Anything I can do to make myself
>>>> more efficient is great.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Aaron
>
>
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> --
> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> "Sometimes I think my learning curve is a circle." -- David Andrews
>
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