[nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display

majolls at cox.net majolls at cox.net
Wed Nov 16 19:23:40 UTC 2011 

If you ever did start up such a company, it might be as easy as identifying Linux based products that:
1. replace accessibility software
2. replace Microsoft Office for document preparation for professionals / students
3. replace programming environments (Java, C++, for students / professionals doing that type of work)
4. replace programs for any other activity that people wanted to do.

Once you have the products identified and can easily install the O/S and software on a laptop (for example) per the needed configuration, the only other things would be delivering the product and doing some training.  Seems like that wouldn't be a bad deal.  Then you'd have to make the price attractive so people would save a lot over the Microsoft / Freedom / AISquared configurations.  But if you had a good platform and configuration that fit people's needs, and a good price, and could show people they could do the same things on the alternate platform, I would think you'd have a good deal once people realized they didn't need Windows.

Something to think about anyway.

Mike Jolls

---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote: 
> Well, I wouldn't recommend moving away from the linux GUI.  Just understand 
> that its not quite up to the standards set by jaws. It may be close to that 
> set by other free screen readers like voiceOver and nvda.
> 
> I do not use emacs or emacspeak. I use vi when in the CLI and gedit when in 
> the GUI.
> 
> The one thing I wanted to get across is that I got the impression that some 
> people are still thinking of linux as an novelty. In fact, linux is a real 
> operating system. The University of Wisconsin has run its web servers on 
> linux for about 10 years already. VMWare ESX and ESXI are linux forks. For 
> server purposes, linux is far ahead of Microsoft products. So when someone 
> says, "You get what you pay for" regarding linux, its just not accurate. 
> Linux costs nothing, but its not nothing.
> 
> I have a dream of starting a company to compete with Freedom Scientific 
> selling linux based accessibility equipment. I'm never going to do it 
> because I have too good of a job to give up and start over at my age. But I 
> do think there is an opportunity there.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 11:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
> 
> 
> > John,
> >
> > Cool! I'm using Ubuntu 11.04, with Orca/Speech Dispatcher/eSpeak. And I'm 
> > still using the GUI, although my goal is to move away from that. I'm 
> > working while learning, so haring off on new adventures is still in the 
> > future. Mostly. /smile/
> >
> > Could you tell me more about SpeakUP?
> >
> > Also, do you use Emacs, and is it accessible with SpeakUp? Or is that 
> > Speex... I'm really interested in using Emacs for a lot of des/dev tasks, 
> > but it wasn't accessible in Orca in Ubuntu 11.04. There have been some 
> > accessibilit upgrades in a lot of things with the Ubuntu 11.10 release, 
> > and also a lot of things that have had to be fixed, some still pending. 
> > Ingteresting times for a newbie. Or even the oldies, I guess. /smile/ I 
> > love the freedom of the open source world I've finally gotten back to, but 
> > it's a wild place with lions and tigers and bears, oh my. /grin/ 
> > Especially if you need accessibility. In some ways, it's absolutely great. 
> > In others... Interesting. /smile/
> >
> > I was stuck for too many years with JAWS 7.0 so can't make a reasonable 
> > comparison with Orca. Except that I don't have to get stuck with an old 
> > version because of the price of upgrade in tough times... Or expecially 
> > the price of a new license when the tough times draw on too long. To me, 
> > free is freedom! /lol/
> >
> > One thing I will say that I hated in JAWS that I love in Orca: Forms! Much 
> > friendlier in Orca. Whew! /smile/
> >
> > Tami
> >
> > On 11/13/2011 06:44 PM, John G. Heim wrote:
> >> Well, given the way you put it, getting what you pay for, then linux is
> >> one heck of a bargain. I'm not saying the screen reader for the linux
> >> graphical user interface, orca, is as good as jaws. But for free, it is
> >> pretty darn good. I use it all the time, every day.
> >>
> >> The screen reader for the character user interface, speakup, is even
> >> better. In fact, I would say that speakup is the best screen reader out
> >> there. It it rock solid and does everything you need. Of course, its
> >> probably easier to write a screen reader for character mode than for a
> >> GUI. But speakup has been included on the debian linux installation disk
> >> for years so if you had a hardware speech synth, you could get a talking
> >> install. The newest version of the debian linux installation CD has
> >> software speech so you don't even need a hardware synth. When do you
> >> think Microsoft will be coming up with a talking installation disk for
> >> Windows? Don't hold your breath.
> >>
> >> n Nov 13, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Mike Jolls wrote:
> >>
> >>> Mike:
> >>>
> >>> As I say, I have Ubuntu loaded on a laptop. I'm going to try and spend
> >>> some
> >>> time checking it out to see how good it is.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I would in general agree that you get what you pay for. I recall
> >>> once
> >>> I purchased a program (I think it was $20) which was supposed to write
> >>> code
> >>> for you and save you time in programming. Well, it did write code, but
> >>> the
> >>> program it wrote was such that it was a shell of a shell of a shell. In
> >>> other words, it only wrote enough code to say .. "see, I wrote you a 
> >>> very
> >>> small program ... now you do the remaining 95% of the work". So, yeah, I
> >>> hear you. I'm hoping the Ubuntu is different. I could be wrong as you
> >>> say.
> >>> If I am, at least I'm not out any money.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for responding
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Mike Freeman
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:56 AM
> >>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
> >>>
> >>> Mike:
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure Curtis Willoughby would agree with you. I certainly like
> >>> Linux from
> >>> a console. But the realist in me says that you get the sort of support
> >>> you
> >>> pay for. Hence, since Ubuntu is free, you get just about that amount of
> >>> support guaranteed.
> >>>
> >>> Even in noncapatlist societies, Robert Heinline's dictum holds sway:
> >>> TANSTAAFL -- There Ain't No such thing As A Free Lunch!
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Mike Jolls
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 3:58 AM
> >>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
> >>>
> >>> I would have to agree with your statement that prices for adaptive
> >>> technology will likely never go down because we are such a small market.
> >>> That is, if you're looking at it from a profit/cost perspective. We
> >>> do, of
> >>> course, live in a capitalistic society and that keeps the prices high.
> >>> Now,
> >>> if someone comes along and develops something because it's something
> >>> blind
> >>> people need and they aren't concerned so much about making a profit
> >>> ... but
> >>> rather helping the blind community ... then we might have a chance at
> >>> getting products that aren't so costly.
> >>>
> >>> Take, for example, the Ubuntu (Linux - I think it's Orca) operating
> >>> system
> >>> that has the screen reader and magnification built right in. The O/S is
> >>> free. It's not like Windows where you have adaptive products such as
> >>> ZoomText ($500) and Jaws ($1000) that run on top of the O/S and you
> >>> have to
> >>> buy these products separately to run with the O/S. Someone got the idea
> >>> that blind people ought to be able to "see" for free, just like normally
> >>> sighted people can. So there are people out there that are generous who
> >>> aren't just purely interested in making a profit but would be willing to
> >>> provide products just because they are needed. Imagine what life would 
> >>> be
> >>> like if Louis Braille had said ... "Gee, I'll come up with Braille but
> >>> only
> >>> if I make a profit". Where would we be then?
> >>>
> >>> By the way, I know nothing about Ubuntu/Linux yet, but am on a discovery
> >>> quest to see how viable that O/S is. I have a laptop with Orca installed
> >>> and I want to see how many applications have been developed for that 
> >>> O/S.
> >>> Perhaps we have something here that could be a replacement for Windows.
> >>> Perhaps we have, in Ubuntu, a way that rehab organizations can provide
> >>> computers to blind people at a lower cost.
> >>>
> >>> So, I think it's possible that technology may not always be price
> >>> prohibitive. We just have to find the right people that are 
> >>> philanthropic
> >>> and more interested in getting the technology produced because it
> >>> needs to
> >>> be done.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Mike Freeman
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:34 PM
> >>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
> >>>
> >>> When I first began to write for computers -- first in FORTRAN and then
> >>> in an
> >>> assembler -- I, too, did not have speech. We used punch cards for
> >>> input (and
> >>> occasionally I used the console typewriter which was an IBM Selectric)
> >>> and I
> >>> either had someone read my output or, later on, I and a couple of
> >>> other guys
> >>> discovered that the console lights would make an FM radio make noises as
> >>> they operated and if you programmed right, you could get tones so we did
> >>> some more programming using typewriter interrupts as counters and got 
> >>> the
> >>> thing to send Morse code thru the radio and I got my output that way.
> >>>
> >>> Those were the days.
> >>>
> >>> I'm afraid, though, that I'm going to have to disappoint Tami by
> >>> saying that
> >>> the cost of adaptive tech will never go down very much -- at least for
> >>> sophisticated adaptive tech such as screen-readers -- because there
> >>> are too
> >>> few of us to really bring economies of scale to the creation process.
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Doug Lee
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:50 PM
> >>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
> >>>
> >>> Wow. I had occasion to write machine code in hex without an assembler,
> >>> but
> >>> at least I had speech. 1983, that was...
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 09:44:50PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
> >>> Tami:
> >>>
> >>> Most of us don't have a clue as to how far things have come. Chuck
> >>> Hallenbeck told me that when he started using computers in the early
> >>> 1970's,
> >>> he first had to write an assembler program with out speech or any kind 
> >>> of
> >>> assistive technology, and once that was done, he had to use the
> >>> assembler to
> >>> write a program to make the computer talk -- in its crude way.
> >>>
> >>> The first computer I saw, that was semi-accessible, had to be taught
> >>> how to
> >>> pronounce each and every word, or it would spell. Chuck and I of course
> >>> taught it how to say "beer."
> >>>
> >>> Dave
> >>>
> >>> At 08:52 AM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
> >>>> Heavens! No one can accuse you of not being dedicated.
> >>>>
> >>>> The more war stories I hear from those like you who did all the heavy
> >>>> duty ground breaking back in the day when assistive technology didn't
> >>>> really exist,, the more I realize how easy we have it now.
> >>>> The tech still lags, but it is there and gaining ground. The price of
> >>>> the really good stuff is still a barrier in the face of recalcitrant
> >>>> agencies and schools, but it is now possible for us non-print readers
> >>>> to compete much more fully with our sighted peers than even just a
> >>>> handful of years ago. There are more options available, too,. The cost
> >>>> barrier is still pretty daunting, but...
> >>>> Sooner or later that is going to have to change. The more students and
> >>>> professionals who push through those remaining barriers, the closer we
> >>>> come to freer access to those technical wonders we need to compete and
> >>>> excel and still have time left over to sleep now and then. /smile/ The
> >>>> dramatic increase in efficiency is a real difference-maker in the
> >>>> competitive arena. So, then, the greater competitiveness of every
> >>>> single individual who uses it in school and work and daily life will go
> >>>> a long way at chipping through those ridiculous low expectations people
> >>>> still insist on laying on us.
> >>>> Wider access to communications technology and social media will, I
> >>>> think, have a growing impact on the low expectations some accept from
> >>>> hearing them every time they attempt to get resources, too.
> >>>> Well, that is a hope of mine, anyway. /smile/
> >>>>
> >>>> Tami
> >>>>
> >>>> e
> >>>>
> >>>> On 11/08/2011 12:54 PM, Doug Lee wrote:
> >>>>> I have done programming via just speech for most of 20 years, but I
> >>>>> find Braille displays very helpful for a few tasks. Mostly, they speed
> >>>>> up the process of tracing indent levels, as has already been
> >>>>> mentioned.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To be fair, I should say that perhaps the reason I use speech almost
> >>>>> to the exclusion of Braille is that, when I started out in
> >>>>> programming, it was my only realistic choice. I used to braille
> >>>>> program listings onto paper with Braille printers, but that's so much
> >>>>> slower than a modern Braille display even now. I seem to recall
> >>>>> spending a good afternoon Brailling out the entire TexTalker.blind
> >>>>> speech program in Assembly language on an Apple once, to the tune of
> >>>>> about 60 pages I think, using a Cranmer modified Perkins Brailler,
> >>>>> which probably put out less than seven lines a minute and required
> >>>>> manual loading of each page... but we're way past all that now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 08, 2011 at 12:35:38PM -0800, Tami Kinney wrote:
> >>>>> Aaron,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've been dragging my feet getting back into programming because I
> >>>>> haven't managed to get a braille display, and trying to get started
> >>>>> again using speech only makes me crazy. Also, Hearing code read to me
> >>>>> sounds like incomprehensible gibberish. I'm starting to just suck it
> >>>>> up and set aside time regularly to practice listening to code and path
> >>>>> names for linux config files or terminal commands, but... It's coming
> >>>>> slowly for me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My own queries around and about indicate that most professional
> >>>>> programmers find the 80-cell display to be their best option. My
> >>>>> former employer was prepared to purchase one for me when I was losing
> >>>>> the ability to read print, only we needed the VR agency to get someone
> >>>>> out for an onsite evaluation and more information about the technical
> >>>>> details, so... I hope they found someone good to do that job when I
> >>>>> had to give it up because I couldn't read and the agency still
> >>>>> couldn't get anyone out there. Sigh. The price of an 80-cell then, as
> >>>>> now, is around $10k.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A 40-cell is around $5k, although I guess the Focus is only $4k these
> >>>>> days... There are rumors that prices will start to come down soon, so
> >>>>> I'm waiting for that with bated breath.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You're the third person I've ever heard of who does programming with
> >>>>> speech only. /smile/ So I'm sure there must be others. You've bummed
> >>>>> me out because if other people can program with speech only, then I
> >>>>> don't have any excuse to put off learning to do that myself, do i?
> >>>>> /grin/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would say you're dead on about efficiency. I can only guess for
> >>>>> myself, but there do seem to be a lot of little tasks or bits of tasks
> >>>>> that involve squirrelling around with the screen reader that people
> >>>>> who use braille just read with their fingers... My assumptions on my
> >>>>> expectations for improved efficiency are also based on the simple fact
> >>>>> that even as a pretty new braille reader, I recall waht I read through
> >>>>> my fingers much more accurately and clearly than I do what I hear read
> >>>>> to me... I'm getting better due to experience but ... That's not
> >>>>> saying much. /smile/ Proofing is also more time consuming and also
> >>>>> fatiguing for me. That could be mostly just me and how I respond
> >>>>> conceptually to the spoken word as opposed to the read word... My
> >>>>> fingers do a much better job for me at replacing my eyeballs than do
> >>>>> my ears.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't know if that is helpful, but I thought I would throw it out
> >>>>> since I'm in a similar place.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone else has to say. /smile/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tami
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 11/08/2011 06:46 AM, Aaron Cannon wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi all.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm wondering how many programmers use a braille display? I have
> >>>>>> been programming for the past several years, but I've never tried to
> >>>>>> use a braille display. Do you feel that it makes you more efficient?
> >>>>>> If so, how exactly?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I assume the larger the display, the better?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Any advice would be appreciated. Anything I can do to make myself
> >>>>>> more efficient is great.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Aaron
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
> >>> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
> >>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> >>> "Sometimes I think my learning curve is a circle." -- David Andrews
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
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> > 
> 
> 
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