[nfbcs] Linux WASRe: Programming with a Braille display

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Thu Nov 17 14:38:03 UTC 2011 

Blind guys Occupying cyberspace!
Isn't there a kickstart for very small businesses?  If so, I'd be willing
to join in investing in a business working to provide blind people
computers at reasonable costs, if I was satisfied the person running it
had the energy and commitment to make it work.
Tracy

> Mike,
>
> I've gotten pretty close to your analysis while I whip myself through
> the learning curve and become productive every now and then... While
> listening more to people wondering what to do about accessibility that
> doesn't involve waiting for one of those VR agencies that aren't as
> responsive to the applicant's needs for service as the applicants need
> them to be...
>
> Solution? Linux! Why not! Filling in the blanks requires thought and
> planning before I, at least, could reasonably consider implementation.
> Hm...
>
> I feel really encouraged that others, like you, are thinking along the
> same lines and discussing ideas. I haven't gotten there yet, but my
> intuition and growing experience keeps telling me that it should really
> be easy...
>
> Well, meanwhile, I'm fussing over how to implement a plan that involves
> my trying my hand at teaching another foundation skill... The big
> barrier for me is that I am simply not a good teacher by nature.
> However, I am a really good self-educator... And a really good
> encourager, using operant conditioning and positive reinforcement. So,
> then... I have to round up some resource references and get price lists
> and all that, but the information gathering phase is pretty well done...
> So now I have to figure out what to do about that. /lol/ I figure I can
> just stop wondering about my probability of success and go for it to see
> what happens.
>
> So then maybe that will give me experience to add to the plot to take
> over the world with Linux It's fun to think about, at least for now. The
> future awaits and all that. /smile/
>
> Tami
>
>
> On 11/16/2011 11:23 AM, majolls at cox.net wrote:
>> If you ever did start up such a company, it might be as easy as
>> identifying Linux based products that:
>> 1. replace accessibility software
>> 2. replace Microsoft Office for document preparation for professionals /
>> students
>> 3. replace programming environments (Java, C++, for students /
>> professionals doing that type of work)
>> 4. replace programs for any other activity that people wanted to do.
>>
>> Once you have the products identified and can easily install the O/S and
>> software on a laptop (for example) per the needed configuration, the
>> only other things would be delivering the product and doing some
>> training.  Seems like that wouldn't be a bad deal.  Then you'd have to
>> make the price attractive so people would save a lot over the Microsoft
>> / Freedom / AISquared configurations.  But if you had a good platform
>> and configuration that fit people's needs, and a good price, and could
>> show people they could do the same things on the alternate platform, I
>> would think you'd have a good deal once people realized they didn't need
>> Windows.
>>
>> Something to think about anyway.
>>
>> Mike Jolls
>>
>> ---- "John G. Heim"<jheim at math.wisc.edu>  wrote:
>>> Well, I wouldn't recommend moving away from the linux GUI.  Just
>>> understand
>>> that its not quite up to the standards set by jaws. It may be close to
>>> that
>>> set by other free screen readers like voiceOver and nvda.
>>>
>>> I do not use emacs or emacspeak. I use vi when in the CLI and gedit
>>> when in
>>> the GUI.
>>>
>>> The one thing I wanted to get across is that I got the impression that
>>> some
>>> people are still thinking of linux as an novelty. In fact, linux is a
>>> real
>>> operating system. The University of Wisconsin has run its web servers
>>> on
>>> linux for about 10 years already. VMWare ESX and ESXI are linux forks.
>>> For
>>> server purposes, linux is far ahead of Microsoft products. So when
>>> someone
>>> says, "You get what you pay for" regarding linux, its just not
>>> accurate.
>>> Linux costs nothing, but its not nothing.
>>>
>>> I have a dream of starting a company to compete with Freedom Scientific
>>> selling linux based accessibility equipment. I'm never going to do it
>>> because I have too good of a job to give up and start over at my age.
>>> But I
>>> do think there is an opportunity there.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tami Kinney"<tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List"<nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 11:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>
>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> Cool! I'm using Ubuntu 11.04, with Orca/Speech Dispatcher/eSpeak. And
>>>> I'm
>>>> still using the GUI, although my goal is to move away from that. I'm
>>>> working while learning, so haring off on new adventures is still in
>>>> the
>>>> future. Mostly. /smile/
>>>>
>>>> Could you tell me more about SpeakUP?
>>>>
>>>> Also, do you use Emacs, and is it accessible with SpeakUp? Or is that
>>>> Speex... I'm really interested in using Emacs for a lot of des/dev
>>>> tasks,
>>>> but it wasn't accessible in Orca in Ubuntu 11.04. There have been some
>>>> accessibilit upgrades in a lot of things with the Ubuntu 11.10
>>>> release,
>>>> and also a lot of things that have had to be fixed, some still
>>>> pending.
>>>> Ingteresting times for a newbie. Or even the oldies, I guess. /smile/
>>>> I
>>>> love the freedom of the open source world I've finally gotten back to,
>>>> but
>>>> it's a wild place with lions and tigers and bears, oh my. /grin/
>>>> Especially if you need accessibility. In some ways, it's absolutely
>>>> great.
>>>> In others... Interesting. /smile/
>>>>
>>>> I was stuck for too many years with JAWS 7.0 so can't make a
>>>> reasonable
>>>> comparison with Orca. Except that I don't have to get stuck with an
>>>> old
>>>> version because of the price of upgrade in tough times... Or
>>>> expecially
>>>> the price of a new license when the tough times draw on too long. To
>>>> me,
>>>> free is freedom! /lol/
>>>>
>>>> One thing I will say that I hated in JAWS that I love in Orca: Forms!
>>>> Much
>>>> friendlier in Orca. Whew! /smile/
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> On 11/13/2011 06:44 PM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>> Well, given the way you put it, getting what you pay for, then linux
>>>>> is
>>>>> one heck of a bargain. I'm not saying the screen reader for the linux
>>>>> graphical user interface, orca, is as good as jaws. But for free, it
>>>>> is
>>>>> pretty darn good. I use it all the time, every day.
>>>>>
>>>>> The screen reader for the character user interface, speakup, is even
>>>>> better. In fact, I would say that speakup is the best screen reader
>>>>> out
>>>>> there. It it rock solid and does everything you need. Of course, its
>>>>> probably easier to write a screen reader for character mode than for
>>>>> a
>>>>> GUI. But speakup has been included on the debian linux installation
>>>>> disk
>>>>> for years so if you had a hardware speech synth, you could get a
>>>>> talking
>>>>> install. The newest version of the debian linux installation CD has
>>>>> software speech so you don't even need a hardware synth. When do you
>>>>> think Microsoft will be coming up with a talking installation disk
>>>>> for
>>>>> Windows? Don't hold your breath.
>>>>>
>>>>> n Nov 13, 2011, at 2:11 PM, Mike Jolls wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I say, I have Ubuntu loaded on a laptop. I'm going to try and
>>>>>> spend
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> time checking it out to see how good it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I would in general agree that you get what you pay for. I
>>>>>> recall
>>>>>> once
>>>>>> I purchased a program (I think it was $20) which was supposed to
>>>>>> write
>>>>>> code
>>>>>> for you and save you time in programming. Well, it did write code,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> program it wrote was such that it was a shell of a shell of a shell.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> other words, it only wrote enough code to say .. "see, I wrote you a
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> small program ... now you do the remaining 95% of the work". So,
>>>>>> yeah, I
>>>>>> hear you. I'm hoping the Ubuntu is different. I could be wrong as
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> say.
>>>>>> If I am, at least I'm not out any money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for responding
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Mike Freeman
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:56 AM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure Curtis Willoughby would agree with you. I certainly like
>>>>>> Linux from
>>>>>> a console. But the realist in me says that you get the sort of
>>>>>> support
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> pay for. Hence, since Ubuntu is free, you get just about that amount
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> support guaranteed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even in noncapatlist societies, Robert Heinline's dictum holds sway:
>>>>>> TANSTAAFL -- There Ain't No such thing As A Free Lunch!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Mike Jolls
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 3:58 AM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would have to agree with your statement that prices for adaptive
>>>>>> technology will likely never go down because we are such a small
>>>>>> market.
>>>>>> That is, if you're looking at it from a profit/cost perspective. We
>>>>>> do, of
>>>>>> course, live in a capitalistic society and that keeps the prices
>>>>>> high.
>>>>>> Now,
>>>>>> if someone comes along and develops something because it's something
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> people need and they aren't concerned so much about making a profit
>>>>>> ... but
>>>>>> rather helping the blind community ... then we might have a chance
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> getting products that aren't so costly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take, for example, the Ubuntu (Linux - I think it's Orca) operating
>>>>>> system
>>>>>> that has the screen reader and magnification built right in. The O/S
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> free. It's not like Windows where you have adaptive products such as
>>>>>> ZoomText ($500) and Jaws ($1000) that run on top of the O/S and you
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> buy these products separately to run with the O/S. Someone got the
>>>>>> idea
>>>>>> that blind people ought to be able to "see" for free, just like
>>>>>> normally
>>>>>> sighted people can. So there are people out there that are generous
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> aren't just purely interested in making a profit but would be
>>>>>> willing to
>>>>>> provide products just because they are needed. Imagine what life
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> like if Louis Braille had said ... "Gee, I'll come up with Braille
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> if I make a profit". Where would we be then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the way, I know nothing about Ubuntu/Linux yet, but am on a
>>>>>> discovery
>>>>>> quest to see how viable that O/S is. I have a laptop with Orca
>>>>>> installed
>>>>>> and I want to see how many applications have been developed for that
>>>>>> O/S.
>>>>>> Perhaps we have something here that could be a replacement for
>>>>>> Windows.
>>>>>> Perhaps we have, in Ubuntu, a way that rehab organizations can
>>>>>> provide
>>>>>> computers to blind people at a lower cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I think it's possible that technology may not always be price
>>>>>> prohibitive. We just have to find the right people that are
>>>>>> philanthropic
>>>>>> and more interested in getting the technology produced because it
>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>> be done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Mike Freeman
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:34 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I first began to write for computers -- first in FORTRAN and
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> in an
>>>>>> assembler -- I, too, did not have speech. We used punch cards for
>>>>>> input (and
>>>>>> occasionally I used the console typewriter which was an IBM
>>>>>> Selectric)
>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> either had someone read my output or, later on, I and a couple of
>>>>>> other guys
>>>>>> discovered that the console lights would make an FM radio make
>>>>>> noises as
>>>>>> they operated and if you programmed right, you could get tones so we
>>>>>> did
>>>>>> some more programming using typewriter interrupts as counters and
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> thing to send Morse code thru the radio and I got my output that
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those were the days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm afraid, though, that I'm going to have to disappoint Tami by
>>>>>> saying that
>>>>>> the cost of adaptive tech will never go down very much -- at least
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> sophisticated adaptive tech such as screen-readers -- because there
>>>>>> are too
>>>>>> few of us to really bring economies of scale to the creation
>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Doug Lee
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:50 PM
>>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Programming with a Braille display
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow. I had occasion to write machine code in hex without an
>>>>>> assembler,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> at least I had speech. 1983, that was...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 09:44:50PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>>> Tami:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of us don't have a clue as to how far things have come. Chuck
>>>>>> Hallenbeck told me that when he started using computers in the early
>>>>>> 1970's,
>>>>>> he first had to write an assembler program with out speech or any
>>>>>> kind
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> assistive technology, and once that was done, he had to use the
>>>>>> assembler to
>>>>>> write a program to make the computer talk -- in its crude way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first computer I saw, that was semi-accessible, had to be taught
>>>>>> how to
>>>>>> pronounce each and every word, or it would spell. Chuck and I of
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> taught it how to say "beer."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 08:52 AM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
>>>>>>> Heavens! No one can accuse you of not being dedicated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The more war stories I hear from those like you who did all the
>>>>>>> heavy
>>>>>>> duty ground breaking back in the day when assistive technology
>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>> really exist,, the more I realize how easy we have it now.
>>>>>>> The tech still lags, but it is there and gaining ground. The price
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the really good stuff is still a barrier in the face of
>>>>>>> recalcitrant
>>>>>>> agencies and schools, but it is now possible for us non-print
>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>> to compete much more fully with our sighted peers than even just a
>>>>>>> handful of years ago. There are more options available, too,. The
>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>> barrier is still pretty daunting, but...
>>>>>>> Sooner or later that is going to have to change. The more students
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> professionals who push through those remaining barriers, the closer
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> come to freer access to those technical wonders we need to compete
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> excel and still have time left over to sleep now and then. /smile/
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> dramatic increase in efficiency is a real difference-maker in the
>>>>>>> competitive arena. So, then, the greater competitiveness of every
>>>>>>> single individual who uses it in school and work and daily life
>>>>>>> will go
>>>>>>> a long way at chipping through those ridiculous low expectations
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> still insist on laying on us.
>>>>>>> Wider access to communications technology and social media will, I
>>>>>>> think, have a growing impact on the low expectations some accept
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> hearing them every time they attempt to get resources, too.
>>>>>>> Well, that is a hope of mine, anyway. /smile/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/08/2011 12:54 PM, Doug Lee wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have done programming via just speech for most of 20 years, but
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> find Braille displays very helpful for a few tasks. Mostly, they
>>>>>>>> speed
>>>>>>>> up the process of tracing indent levels, as has already been
>>>>>>>> mentioned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be fair, I should say that perhaps the reason I use speech
>>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>> to the exclusion of Braille is that, when I started out in
>>>>>>>> programming, it was my only realistic choice. I used to braille
>>>>>>>> program listings onto paper with Braille printers, but that's so
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> slower than a modern Braille display even now. I seem to recall
>>>>>>>> spending a good afternoon Brailling out the entire TexTalker.blind
>>>>>>>> speech program in Assembly language on an Apple once, to the tune
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> about 60 pages I think, using a Cranmer modified Perkins Brailler,
>>>>>>>> which probably put out less than seven lines a minute and required
>>>>>>>> manual loading of each page... but we're way past all that now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 08, 2011 at 12:35:38PM -0800, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>>>>> Aaron,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been dragging my feet getting back into programming because I
>>>>>>>> haven't managed to get a braille display, and trying to get
>>>>>>>> started
>>>>>>>> again using speech only makes me crazy. Also, Hearing code read to
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> sounds like incomprehensible gibberish. I'm starting to just suck
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> up and set aside time regularly to practice listening to code and
>>>>>>>> path
>>>>>>>> names for linux config files or terminal commands, but... It's
>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>> slowly for me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My own queries around and about indicate that most professional
>>>>>>>> programmers find the 80-cell display to be their best option. My
>>>>>>>> former employer was prepared to purchase one for me when I was
>>>>>>>> losing
>>>>>>>> the ability to read print, only we needed the VR agency to get
>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>> out for an onsite evaluation and more information about the
>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>> details, so... I hope they found someone good to do that job when
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> had to give it up because I couldn't read and the agency still
>>>>>>>> couldn't get anyone out there. Sigh. The price of an 80-cell then,
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> now, is around $10k.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A 40-cell is around $5k, although I guess the Focus is only $4k
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> days... There are rumors that prices will start to come down soon,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> I'm waiting for that with bated breath.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're the third person I've ever heard of who does programming
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> speech only. /smile/ So I'm sure there must be others. You've
>>>>>>>> bummed
>>>>>>>> me out because if other people can program with speech only, then
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> don't have any excuse to put off learning to do that myself, do i?
>>>>>>>> /grin/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would say you're dead on about efficiency. I can only guess for
>>>>>>>> myself, but there do seem to be a lot of little tasks or bits of
>>>>>>>> tasks
>>>>>>>> that involve squirrelling around with the screen reader that
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> who use braille just read with their fingers... My assumptions on
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> expectations for improved efficiency are also based on the simple
>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>> that even as a pretty new braille reader, I recall waht I read
>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>> my fingers much more accurately and clearly than I do what I hear
>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>> to me... I'm getting better due to experience but ... That's not
>>>>>>>> saying much. /smile/ Proofing is also more time consuming and also
>>>>>>>> fatiguing for me. That could be mostly just me and how I respond
>>>>>>>> conceptually to the spoken word as opposed to the read word... My
>>>>>>>> fingers do a much better job for me at replacing my eyeballs than
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> my ears.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know if that is helpful, but I thought I would throw it
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> since I'm in a similar place.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone else has to say.
>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/08/2011 06:46 AM, Aaron Cannon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering how many programmers use a braille display? I have
>>>>>>>>> been programming for the past several years, but I've never tried
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> use a braille display. Do you feel that it makes you more
>>>>>>>>> efficient?
>>>>>>>>> If so, how exactly?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I assume the larger the display, the better?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any advice would be appreciated. Anything I can do to make myself
>>>>>>>>> more efficient is great.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
>>>>>> SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>>>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>>>>> "Sometimes I think my learning curve is a circle." -- David Andrews
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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