[nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)

John Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Wed Jan 18 15:19:18 UTC 2012 

Gave, your opinion is no more valuable than mine.  I have 30 years of 
experience as a developer and I know for a fact that most users prefer apps 
that work over ones that look pretty.

If you can't discuss this without being insulting, you should shut up.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gabe Vega" <theblindtech at gmail.com>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)


>I pitty your false sense of reality on your view on accessible apps. it 
>just doesn't work that way in the sighted world.
> Gabe Vega - Sent from my Apple Mac Mini
> Hit me up Voice/Text: (623) 565-9357
> Email: theblindtech at gmail.com
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/blindtech
> FaceBook: http://facebook.com/blindtech
> Website: http://thebt.net
>
> On Jan 18, 2012, at 7:36 AM, John Heim wrote:
>
>> I don't know... It seems to me that the best software is almost always 
>> also the most accessible. Most users don't really like all the fancy 
>> graphics and junk that a lot of developers put into their software. There 
>> used to be an IBM commercial where two guys were sitting behind a 
>> computer and one guy, clearly supposed to be a developer, says to his 
>> boss, "We have our flaming rotating logo on the web site now." The boss 
>> says, "Wow cool. Now if you could tie this in with the inventory and 
>> accounts payable, we'd really have something." And the nerd says, "I 
>> don't know how to do that."  I found that commercial very realistic.
>>
>> BTW, here is a link to an accessible ISO recorder:
>> http://alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm
>>
>> Now, that piece of software is simple, easy to use, works great and is 
>> 100% accessible. Why can't all software be like that?
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>
>>
>>> Gary and John,
>>>
>>> While I agree with both of you, I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling 
>>> that part of our problem is that making things accessible is difficult 
>>> and is made more
>>> difficult by the lagging behind of screen readers.  MouseOvers, which 
>>> are what I gather is used a lot in Remedy, cannot be handled easily by 
>>> screen
>>> readers because they largely use a static representation of a web page, 
>>> the same one they have been using for probably more than a decade.  I
>>> understand that they probably just don't have the resources given all of 
>>> the other changes that have come about such as Windows Vist and Windows 
>>> 7
>>> and the constant updating of Office to mention just a few.  Still, we 
>>> are not likely going to get the industry to wait until screen readers 
>>> can catch up before
>>> using a given technology.  There will be a lot of resistance to 
>>> accessibility requirements as long as we see that kind of lag.  On the 
>>> other hand, some of
>>> our accessibility problems are coming from cross-platform development 
>>> approaches and we need some help there.  The shakers and movers behind 
>>> JAVA
>>> have been talking about accessibilityy for fifteen years, and I dare say 
>>> that accessible JAVA apps are still very rare.  That is ridiculous. 
>>> Screen readers
>>> probably play a role here, too, but where do they get the money to pay 
>>> their developers to make there products even work better with the 
>>> Windows
>>> Access Bridge and also to completely revamp their web interfaces?  Our 
>>> best bet is to squeeze the markets of software that is not accessible as 
>>> John
>>> suggests and try to make accessibility something we should expect, but 
>>> something has to be done to make it less complicated to the average 
>>> developer.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:24:27 -0600, John Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think there is any law in the USA that says that software has 
>>>> to be
>>>> accessible.  There is a law called the Rehab Act that says that 
>>>> agencies of
>>>> the government of the United States can't buy inaccessible software if 
>>>> there
>>>> is an accessible alternative. I think it was the Rehab Act that the NFB 
>>>> used
>>>> to get several universities to stop their plans to buy their students 
>>>> kindle
>>>> book readers.  There is also a law that says that consumer 
>>>> communications
>>>> equipment has to be made accessible. That is the
>>>> Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act. Then 
>>>> there
>>>> is the ADA which the Justice Department recently said applies to web 
>>>> sites.
>>>> But like VMWare or Microsoft Word... I don't think there is any law 
>>>> covering
>>>> software like that. I doubt it would be illegal for a company to buy an
>>>> inacccessible software package and then fire a blind person for not 
>>>> being
>>>> able to use it.   The company could argue that using the software is an
>>>> essential part of the job. They could say that a blind person simply 
>>>> cannot
>>>> do the job. Nobody wants a blind airline pilot for example. If there is 
>>>> a
>>>> screen reader that would allow you to use the software, they'd have to 
>>>> buy
>>>> you that. But if no screen reader could work with their software, I 
>>>> believe
>>>> they could show you the door.
>>>
>>>> The greatest hope for progress on accessible software is for us to put 
>>>> some
>>>> teeth into the Rehab Act. The success of the Kindle suit shows how well 
>>>> that
>>>> can work. If government agencies like colleges and universities, most 
>>>> of
>>>> which take funding from the federal government, cannot buy a software
>>>> product because its inaccessible, then companies would be highly 
>>>> motivated
>>>> to make their products accessible.  In fact, I believe this is the 
>>>> reason
>>>> VoiceOver exists. Apple didn't write VoiceOver out of the goodness of 
>>>> their
>>>> collective heart. No, they wrote it so they could continue to sell 
>>>> computers
>>>> to colleges and universities.
>>>
>>>> The NFB has really taken some major steps in this direction in the last
>>>> couple of years with the Kindle lawsuit and the one against Penn State
>>>> University. Any university in this country is as guilty as Penn State. 
>>>> If we
>>>> can light a fire under university administrators, software developers 
>>>> will
>>>> sit up and take notice. They don't want to be locked out of the 
>>>> academic
>>>> market.
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy Carcione" 
>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hi Gary.
>>>>> I wish your answer surprised me.  I'm pretty damn tired of 
>>>>> accessibility
>>>>> being regarded as "something nice to do."
>>>>>
>>>>> So what was the outcome for you?
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>> My experience comes from 18 months ago and it was bad. I inquired of 
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> companies about their interest in scripting a solution. They were 
>>>>>> less
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> enthusiastic. I pushed my company to apply pressure to BMC. They too 
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> less than enthusiastic, viewing accessibility as a nice thing to do
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> than complying with the law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be that in your job this is not a necessity, but in mine it 
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> more substantial. It is the way I got assignments, the way I reported
>>>>>> progress on them, the way I tracked time, and the way I was 
>>>>>> evaluated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:24 AM
>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is anyone using the BMC Remedy web-based client?
>>>>>> We just moved to it.  The old PC-installed client was difficult, but
>>>>>> useable.  The web-based client has links and looks accessible, but I 
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> so far been unable to open any of the sub-menus under Change 
>>>>>> Management,
>>>>>> for example, "Group Manager", or "Assign To".
>>>>>> I asked my sighted co-worker, and he "hovered" the mouse over the 
>>>>>> link,
>>>>>> but I didn't see what he saw, and I don't know how to "hover the 
>>>>>> mouse"
>>>>>> with Jaws.  I tried the left click, the right click, the Applications
>>>>>> key,
>>>>>> and just hitting enter on what looked like a link, but, if a menu
>>>>>> appeared, it wasn't anywhere near where I was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought the web-based Remedy would be an improvement, but I may not 
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> able to do this part of my job anymore.  It's not a vital part, but 
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>> annoying for all concerned.
>>>>>> If anyone has any experience with this thing, I could sure use some
>>>>>> advice.
>>>>>> TIA.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/theblindtech%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>
>

More information about the NFBCS mailing list