[nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)

John Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Wed Jan 18 16:02:50 UTC 2012 

Gabe, merely repeating your opinion proves nothing.  You can claim to have a 
unique insight into the sighted world all you like but its nonsense. You 
don't know any more about it than I do.

Sighted people aren't that different from blind people. For you to claim 
otherwise is just more nonsense. Of *course* sighted people prefer software 
that works over software that looks pretty. You're not disputing that, are 
you? I can give you another couple of examples.

Google is now the most valuable media company in the world. You know how it 
got that way? Because the original google interface was simple, uncluttered, 
and produced excellent search results. They zoomed past other existing 
search engines like Altavista and webcrawler.  I heard many, many interviews 
with people about what they liked about google  at the timeand they all said 
that it was simple and it just worked.

Another example... The paper clip guy from Microsoft. That little guy is 
universally hated. People don't want some little guy popping up telling them 
what to do. They just want their software to work. They wwant a simple, 
intuitive interface.  The resources Microsoft put into developing that 
character would have been much better spent making the interface itself more 
intuitive.

PS: There is nothing wrong with me telling you to shut up when you're 
insulting me.  If you can't discuss this without insults and personal 
attacks, you should indeed shut up. Now, i have little doubt that your 
responsse will be to insult me again because that's been your pattern for 
the last dozen or so years on the internet. But it doesn't help you any. 
You're trying to slide through on the strength of your own credibility but 
to be quite honest, Gabe, you don't have that much credibility.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gabe Vega" <theblindtech at gmail.com>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)


> 1. I use to see, so I know how the real world works. 2. responding with 
> shut up, is no more professional or mature that you intend to be when 
> discussing this. 3. the sighted world truely and I mean truly does not 
> think like a blind computer user does. look where 30 years of developer 
> experience has gotten you, wining on a public email list about how boo hoo 
> your windows screen reader doesn't give you the same equal access as every 
> one else. why not just write your own screen reader Mr. Developer with 30 
> years?
> Gabe Vega - Sent from my Apple Mac Mini
> Hit me up Voice/Text: (623) 565-9357
> Email: theblindtech at gmail.com
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/blindtech
> FaceBook: http://facebook.com/blindtech
> Website: http://thebt.net
>
> On Jan 18, 2012, at 8:19 AM, John Heim wrote:
>
>> Gave, your opinion is no more valuable than mine.  I have 30 years of 
>> experience as a developer and I know for a fact that most users prefer 
>> apps that work over ones that look pretty.
>>
>> If you can't discuss this without being insulting, you should shut up.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabe Vega" <theblindtech at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)
>>
>>
>>> I pitty your false sense of reality on your view on accessible apps. it 
>>> just doesn't work that way in the sighted world.
>>> Gabe Vega - Sent from my Apple Mac Mini
>>> Hit me up Voice/Text: (623) 565-9357
>>> Email: theblindtech at gmail.com
>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/blindtech
>>> FaceBook: http://facebook.com/blindtech
>>> Website: http://thebt.net
>>>
>>> On Jan 18, 2012, at 7:36 AM, John Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know... It seems to me that the best software is almost always 
>>>> also the most accessible. Most users don't really like all the fancy 
>>>> graphics and junk that a lot of developers put into their software. 
>>>> There used to be an IBM commercial where two guys were sitting behind a 
>>>> computer and one guy, clearly supposed to be a developer, says to his 
>>>> boss, "We have our flaming rotating logo on the web site now." The boss 
>>>> says, "Wow cool. Now if you could tie this in with the inventory and 
>>>> accounts payable, we'd really have something." And the nerd says, "I 
>>>> don't know how to do that."  I found that commercial very realistic.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, here is a link to an accessible ISO recorder:
>>>> http://alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm
>>>>
>>>> Now, that piece of software is simple, easy to use, works great and is 
>>>> 100% accessible. Why can't all software be like that?
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>>>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:16 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gary and John,
>>>>>
>>>>> While I agree with both of you, I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling 
>>>>> that part of our problem is that making things accessible is difficult 
>>>>> and is made more
>>>>> difficult by the lagging behind of screen readers.  MouseOvers, which 
>>>>> are what I gather is used a lot in Remedy, cannot be handled easily by 
>>>>> screen
>>>>> readers because they largely use a static representation of a web 
>>>>> page, the same one they have been using for probably more than a 
>>>>> decade.  I
>>>>> understand that they probably just don't have the resources given all 
>>>>> of the other changes that have come about such as Windows Vist and 
>>>>> Windows 7
>>>>> and the constant updating of Office to mention just a few.  Still, we 
>>>>> are not likely going to get the industry to wait until screen readers 
>>>>> can catch up before
>>>>> using a given technology.  There will be a lot of resistance to 
>>>>> accessibility requirements as long as we see that kind of lag.  On the 
>>>>> other hand, some of
>>>>> our accessibility problems are coming from cross-platform development 
>>>>> approaches and we need some help there.  The shakers and movers behind 
>>>>> JAVA
>>>>> have been talking about accessibilityy for fifteen years, and I dare 
>>>>> say that accessible JAVA apps are still very rare.  That is 
>>>>> ridiculous. Screen readers
>>>>> probably play a role here, too, but where do they get the money to pay 
>>>>> their developers to make there products even work better with the 
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> Access Bridge and also to completely revamp their web interfaces?  Our 
>>>>> best bet is to squeeze the markets of software that is not accessible 
>>>>> as John
>>>>> suggests and try to make accessibility something we should expect, but 
>>>>> something has to be done to make it less complicated to the average 
>>>>> developer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:24:27 -0600, John Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think there is any law in the USA that says that software has 
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> accessible.  There is a law called the Rehab Act that says that 
>>>>>> agencies of
>>>>>> the government of the United States can't buy inaccessible software 
>>>>>> if there
>>>>>> is an accessible alternative. I think it was the Rehab Act that the 
>>>>>> NFB used
>>>>>> to get several universities to stop their plans to buy their students 
>>>>>> kindle
>>>>>> book readers.  There is also a law that says that consumer 
>>>>>> communications
>>>>>> equipment has to be made accessible. That is the
>>>>>> Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act. Then 
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is the ADA which the Justice Department recently said applies to web 
>>>>>> sites.
>>>>>> But like VMWare or Microsoft Word... I don't think there is any law 
>>>>>> covering
>>>>>> software like that. I doubt it would be illegal for a company to buy 
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> inacccessible software package and then fire a blind person for not 
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> able to use it.   The company could argue that using the software is 
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> essential part of the job. They could say that a blind person simply 
>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>> do the job. Nobody wants a blind airline pilot for example. If there 
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>> screen reader that would allow you to use the software, they'd have 
>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>> you that. But if no screen reader could work with their software, I 
>>>>>> believe
>>>>>> they could show you the door.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The greatest hope for progress on accessible software is for us to 
>>>>>> put some
>>>>>> teeth into the Rehab Act. The success of the Kindle suit shows how 
>>>>>> well that
>>>>>> can work. If government agencies like colleges and universities, most 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> which take funding from the federal government, cannot buy a software
>>>>>> product because its inaccessible, then companies would be highly 
>>>>>> motivated
>>>>>> to make their products accessible.  In fact, I believe this is the 
>>>>>> reason
>>>>>> VoiceOver exists. Apple didn't write VoiceOver out of the goodness of 
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> collective heart. No, they wrote it so they could continue to sell 
>>>>>> computers
>>>>>> to colleges and universities.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The NFB has really taken some major steps in this direction in the 
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> couple of years with the Kindle lawsuit and the one against Penn 
>>>>>> State
>>>>>> University. Any university in this country is as guilty as Penn 
>>>>>> State. If we
>>>>>> can light a fire under university administrators, software developers 
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> sit up and take notice. They don't want to be locked out of the 
>>>>>> academic
>>>>>> market.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy Carcione" 
>>>>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:20 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Gary.
>>>>>>> I wish your answer surprised me.  I'm pretty damn tired of 
>>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>>> being regarded as "something nice to do."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what was the outcome for you?
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My experience comes from 18 months ago and it was bad. I inquired 
>>>>>>>> of two
>>>>>>>> companies about their interest in scripting a solution. They were 
>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> enthusiastic. I pushed my company to apply pressure to BMC. They 
>>>>>>>> too were
>>>>>>>> less than enthusiastic, viewing accessibility as a nice thing to do
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> than complying with the law.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may be that in your job this is not a necessity, but in mine it 
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> more substantial. It is the way I got assignments, the way I 
>>>>>>>> reported
>>>>>>>> progress on them, the way I tracked time, and the way I was 
>>>>>>>> evaluated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:24 AM
>>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is anyone using the BMC Remedy web-based client?
>>>>>>>> We just moved to it.  The old PC-installed client was difficult, 
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> useable.  The web-based client has links and looks accessible, but 
>>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>> so far been unable to open any of the sub-menus under Change 
>>>>>>>> Management,
>>>>>>>> for example, "Group Manager", or "Assign To".
>>>>>>>> I asked my sighted co-worker, and he "hovered" the mouse over the 
>>>>>>>> link,
>>>>>>>> but I didn't see what he saw, and I don't know how to "hover the 
>>>>>>>> mouse"
>>>>>>>> with Jaws.  I tried the left click, the right click, the 
>>>>>>>> Applications
>>>>>>>> key,
>>>>>>>> and just hitting enter on what looked like a link, but, if a menu
>>>>>>>> appeared, it wasn't anywhere near where I was.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought the web-based Remedy would be an improvement, but I may 
>>>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>>> able to do this part of my job anymore.  It's not a vital part, but 
>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>> annoying for all concerned.
>>>>>>>> If anyone has any experience with this thing, I could sure use some
>>>>>>>> advice.
>>>>>>>> TIA.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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