[nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)

John Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Wed Jan 18 16:56:33 UTC 2012 

Yeah, I may have been inadvertently disputing a point you never made.   I'm 
sure we both agree that most accessibility problems are fairly easy to 
avoid. And certainly, i would not dispute that some are nearly impossible to 
avoid. Probably the classic example of that is the practice of making old 
paper documents available by scanning them into PDF documents. It means a 
blind person has to save a copy of the document, extract the image, run an 
OCR program on the image, and hope for meaningful results. But if 
institutions can't put scanned documents on their web sites, they won't make 
them available at all. Some access is better than none.

I still say that many accessibility problems are unnecessary if only because 
the thing they add isn't even critical to the purpose of the software 
itself.  There is a principle in computer programming that simpler is 
better. That is just short of an inviolable  law of programming. Simpler is 
almost always better. In spite of this, developers often add complexity to 
their user interfaces while  adding nothing to the feature set of the 
software and only making it more likely to have bugs.

Of course, in spite of some strongly worded opinions on this issue, its not 
really a key point.  We're not going to change human nature.  I guess the 
only reason the issue has any significance is that, in my opinion, we're 
doing everyone a favor by insisting on accessibility.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Accessibility (was: BMC Remedy web-based client)


> John,
>
> I see at least two obstacles that affect employment.  First, employers are 
> not always driven by what is
> the best software.  Sometimes it is cost, sometimes it is integration with 
> what they have already
> purchased, sometimes it is what their developers know, and sometimes a 
> particular piece of software has
> features that speak directly to something within the business.  The second 
> problem I see is that there
> is some pretty good software that is not accessible because it is written 
> using development tools to
> create cross-platform applications.
>
> For whatever the reason, courses that I am required to take for my job are 
> far less accessible than they
> were five years ago.  I'm trying to get to the bottom of that problem but 
> it isn't easy, and it is very
> frustrating.  I use the Remedy client with Window-Eyes, and it is far from 
> perfect but I can manage.
> However, a certain radio check box is correctly reported by Window-Eyes as 
> a Radio check box, but it
> also reports that it is zero of zero.  I've only seen this in Remedy. 
> After I access the check box,
> Remedy usually crashes.  I don't know whose fault it is, and I don't 
> really have time to follow up on it
> at this point, because it is a checkbox I deal with perhaps once a year. 
> Still, my co-workers don't
> have this problem.  I really feel that we are going to have to figure out 
> where else to apply pressure
> to have software made accessible in addition to squeezing the market with 
> laws even though that is
> probably where we've been most successful.  Although Window-Eyes, JFW, and 
> other screen readers have
> their problems keeping up, I'm not sure I have faith that Microsoft could 
> solve our problems with an
> included screen reader, either.  The Apple model will be interesting to 
> watch as it evolves.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:36:49 -0600, John Heim wrote:
>
>>I don't know... It seems to me that the best software is almost always 
>>also
>>the most accessible. Most users don't really like all the fancy graphics 
>>and
>>junk that a lot of developers put into their software. There used to be an
>>IBM commercial where two guys were sitting behind a computer and one guy,
>>clearly supposed to be a developer, says to his boss, "We have our flaming
>>rotating logo on the web site now." The boss says, "Wow cool. Now if you
>>could tie this in with the inventory and accounts payable, we'd really 
>>have
>>something." And the nerd says, "I don't know how to do that."  I found 
>>that
>>commercial very realistic.
>
>>BTW, here is a link to an accessible ISO recorder:
>>http://alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm
>
>>Now, that piece of software is simple, easy to use, works great and is 
>>100%
>>accessible. Why can't all software be like that?
>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:16 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>
>
>>> Gary and John,
>>>
>>> While I agree with both of you, I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling 
>>> that
>>> part of our problem is that making things accessible is difficult and is
>>> made more
>>> difficult by the lagging behind of screen readers.  MouseOvers, which 
>>> are
>>> what I gather is used a lot in Remedy, cannot be handled easily by 
>>> screen
>>> readers because they largely use a static representation of a web page,
>>> the same one they have been using for probably more than a decade.  I
>>> understand that they probably just don't have the resources given all of
>>> the other changes that have come about such as Windows Vist and Windows 
>>> 7
>>> and the constant updating of Office to mention just a few.  Still, we 
>>> are
>>> not likely going to get the industry to wait until screen readers can
>>> catch up before
>>> using a given technology.  There will be a lot of resistance to
>>> accessibility requirements as long as we see that kind of lag.  On the
>>> other hand, some of
>>> our accessibility problems are coming from cross-platform development
>>> approaches and we need some help there.  The shakers and movers behind
>>> JAVA
>>> have been talking about accessibilityy for fifteen years, and I dare say
>>> that accessible JAVA apps are still very rare.  That is ridiculous.
>>> Screen readers
>>> probably play a role here, too, but where do they get the money to pay
>>> their developers to make there products even work better with the 
>>> Windows
>>> Access Bridge and also to completely revamp their web interfaces?  Our
>>> best bet is to squeeze the markets of software that is not accessible as
>>> John
>>> suggests and try to make accessibility something we should expect, but
>>> something has to be done to make it less complicated to the average
>>> developer.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:24:27 -0600, John Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>>I don't think there is any law in the USA that says that software has to
>>>>be
>>>>accessible.  There is a law called the Rehab Act that says that agencies
>>>>of
>>>>the government of the United States can't buy inaccessible software if
>>>>there
>>>>is an accessible alternative. I think it was the Rehab Act that the NFB
>>>>used
>>>>to get several universities to stop their plans to buy their students
>>>>kindle
>>>>book readers.  There is also a law that says that consumer 
>>>>communications
>>>>equipment has to be made accessible. That is the
>>>>Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act. Then
>>>>there
>>>>is the ADA which the Justice Department recently said applies to web
>>>>sites.
>>>>But like VMWare or Microsoft Word... I don't think there is any law
>>>>covering
>>>>software like that. I doubt it would be illegal for a company to buy an
>>>>inacccessible software package and then fire a blind person for not 
>>>>being
>>>>able to use it.   The company could argue that using the software is an
>>>>essential part of the job. They could say that a blind person simply
>>>>cannot
>>>>do the job. Nobody wants a blind airline pilot for example. If there is 
>>>>a
>>>>screen reader that would allow you to use the software, they'd have to 
>>>>buy
>>>>you that. But if no screen reader could work with their software, I
>>>>believe
>>>>they could show you the door.
>>>
>>>>The greatest hope for progress on accessible software is for us to put
>>>>some
>>>>teeth into the Rehab Act. The success of the Kindle suit shows how well
>>>>that
>>>>can work. If government agencies like colleges and universities, most of
>>>>which take funding from the federal government, cannot buy a software
>>>>product because its inaccessible, then companies would be highly 
>>>>motivated
>>>>to make their products accessible.  In fact, I believe this is the 
>>>>reason
>>>>VoiceOver exists. Apple didn't write VoiceOver out of the goodness of
>>>>their
>>>>collective heart. No, they wrote it so they could continue to sell
>>>>computers
>>>>to colleges and universities.
>>>
>>>>The NFB has really taken some major steps in this direction in the last
>>>>couple of years with the Kindle lawsuit and the one against Penn State
>>>>University. Any university in this country is as guilty as Penn State. 
>>>>If
>>>>we
>>>>can light a fire under university administrators, software developers 
>>>>will
>>>>sit up and take notice. They don't want to be locked out of the academic
>>>>market.
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:20 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hi Gary.
>>>>> I wish your answer surprised me.  I'm pretty damn tired of 
>>>>> accessibility
>>>>> being regarded as "something nice to do."
>>>>>
>>>>> So what was the outcome for you?
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>> My experience comes from 18 months ago and it was bad. I inquired of
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> companies about their interest in scripting a solution. They were 
>>>>>> less
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> enthusiastic. I pushed my company to apply pressure to BMC. They too
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> less than enthusiastic, viewing accessibility as a nice thing to do
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> than complying with the law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may be that in your job this is not a necessity, but in mine it 
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> more substantial. It is the way I got assignments, the way I reported
>>>>>> progress on them, the way I tracked time, and the way I was 
>>>>>> evaluated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:24 AM
>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] BMC Remedy web-based client
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is anyone using the BMC Remedy web-based client?
>>>>>> We just moved to it.  The old PC-installed client was difficult, but
>>>>>> useable.  The web-based client has links and looks accessible, but I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> so far been unable to open any of the sub-menus under Change
>>>>>> Management,
>>>>>> for example, "Group Manager", or "Assign To".
>>>>>> I asked my sighted co-worker, and he "hovered" the mouse over the 
>>>>>> link,
>>>>>> but I didn't see what he saw, and I don't know how to "hover the 
>>>>>> mouse"
>>>>>> with Jaws.  I tried the left click, the right click, the Applications
>>>>>> key,
>>>>>> and just hitting enter on what looked like a link, but, if a menu
>>>>>> appeared, it wasn't anywhere near where I was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought the web-based Remedy would be an improvement, but I may not
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> able to do this part of my job anymore.  It's not a vital part, but 
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> annoying for all concerned.
>>>>>> If anyone has any experience with this thing, I could sure use some
>>>>>> advice.
>>>>>> TIA.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>nfbcs mailing list
>>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>nfbcs:
>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>>>
>>>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfbcs mailing list
>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>nfbcs:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nfbcs:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/jheim%40math.wisc.edu
>
>

More information about the NFBCS mailing list