[nfbcs] Career Advice
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Sat Oct 13 02:22:08 UTC 2012
I agree.
Mike Freeman
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Louis Maher
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 3:50 PM
To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
Another answer is to study as much math and other sciences as possible so that you can become a scientist and can design the algorithms and not just follow the lead of others.
You must love math and physics, or some other science, to make this work.
Regards
Louis Maher
713-444-7838
ljmaher at swbell.net
http://www.nfbtx.org/localchapters/houston
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of majolls at cox.net
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:10 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
I did paint a rather dark picture, but I was just stating facts. I wanted to make sure that budding programmers knew what they were getting into. That might make someone think twice whether programming (and the challenges that go along with it for a blind person) is really their thing. Do they want to put up with the daily challenges? Doing extra work that normally sighted people don't have to do? Perhaps not going as fast and being penalized for your vision which imposes that limitation ... being judged for something you have no control over? On this last point, you probably will experience this in any job, not just programming. That's why I said you need to have your solutions and skills up to snuff before you get into the job. That way you know what accomodations to ask for and you know they work. And that's why you need to think about the duties of the job BEFORE you get there .. so your solutions address as many issues as possible, and you don't have very many issues and surprises on the job. It will save you a lot of headaches. When I started working back in the late 70's, I hadn't put 2 and 2 together. I was a naive 22-year old kid who thought the world was my oyster and had no concept of being measured on a job. We were all told we could do anything we wanted to do, but nobody told me that I needed to be aware that the disability would throw me curves and make it more difficult to achieve what everyone else took for granted. I guess I was dumb.
I had no idea how much slower I was or what impact poor vision would have on my career. I hadn't learned Braille and screen readers hadn't been invented yet. So all I had was my vision and reading print. I found out real fast that others could do things in less time and It was a rude awakening when I realized that I was being punished for something that was beyond my control. I'm not sure I would have listened to someone at that age if they told me to be aware of what problems the disability might bring, but I wish someone had told me of what to expect. It's your career that's at stake. I might have tried to prepare more, although at that time a lot of the technology wasn't even around. I'd just hate for someone else to experience any of this when maybe a few words of warning might help them.
You know, I've heard blind people say ... "I don't want to be treated any differently than a normally sighted person", but do they really know what they're asking for? In the end, that's exactly how the employer will treat them. And they'll measure them against the standard that other normally sighted have to work toward. That's why they HAVE to be prepared and know their solutions ahead of time. If they'll get what they ask for and it might not be what they expect and/or hope for.
And here's something that may be interesting to some of you. Personal story.
I had been programming for a number of years and I didn't have any answers to the issues I've stated. I was using my vision all the time to program and simply didn't see a solution. I was taking a programming design course and the book we were reading talked about making software efficient/faster. The book eventually said ... "if you don't change the fundamental architecture of the software, you'll only be able to go as fast as the limitation the architecture imposes upon you". When I read that, the lightbulb went on. I realized that as long as I used my vision to do the job, I was limited to what my vision could do. If I was going to be more efficient ... if I was going to have any chance of going faster ... or doing this more efficiently ... I would have to STOP USING MY VISION to the extent possible. In other words, find an alternate method. That's something I had NEVER considered because being raised with vision .. it's drilled into your head that you read print, that you just go get glasses, or you just do the best you can and basically give up because that's all you can do.
The big takeaway was to eliminate the vision. I'm a firm believer that this is what you have to do. Find a different solution that removes the problem. You know the old adage ... if you keep doing something the same way, why should you expect a different answer? I think you have to get rid of the method that doesn't work to expect any sort of improvement.
Solutions to that issue ... learn Braille .. use a Braille display .. learn Jaws (or some screen reader). Know how fast you read with your vision and strive to get to where you can read faster with the alternate tools since you know that the vision is your Achiles hheel.
Since then I have measured myself. I know that I only read print at 130wpm. No wonder people (when reading a page of text) get done in half the time!! I have since found out that normal people read at around 250wpm. And that's one reason that I've learned Braille. Well, I'm only reading 65 wpm in Braille, but I know with print, I don't have any chance of exceeding the 130 barrier. Fifty + years of experience there. Maybe with Braille I'll eventually get to 200.
Sorry, this was a rather lengthy email. But maybe the idea stated by Clint Eastwood in his Dirty Harry movies .. "A man has to know his limitations" ... has been brought out here. Know them. Know what problems they'll impose upon you. Then try to find alternate solutions that will help you overcome them. It's the only way I can see to help you compete in this world. If you don't do that, you simply get run over.
---- "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> I don't know if you meant it the way it sounds but I don't think you
> have to be a hotshot to program in java or python.
>
> I was once in a job interview and they asked me which programming
> languages I knew. I said I know all of them. Give me a week with any
> programming language and I'll be an expert in it. Maybe not the
> ultimate expert but an expert none the less. I got the job and they
> said it was that answer more than any other that got me the job.
>
> IMO, it's important to look upon the challenge of learning something
> new as an opportunity. Think of how much more valuable you'll be to
> your company once you've learned that new programming language or
> operating system. Think of how proud you'll be of yourself for having
> succeeded at something that even sighted people struggle with. IMO,
> it's no different from blindness itself. It kinda sucks but the only thing to do is to attack the challenge.
> In fact, I'd say that's one way we blind people have the advantage. We
> know how to overcome challenges.
>
> PS: I'm willing to admit that what I say above might not be literally true.
> For example, it may have taken me a little more than a week to become
> an expert in java programming. That might even have taken 2 weeks. :-).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:15 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>
> I concur completely with Steve's observations below. These days, in a
> business or even government environment, less and less traditional
> programming is being done and more and more what programming there is
> is contracted out. Moreover, as Steve says, increasingly, businesses
> and government are buying off-the-shelf software packages (some of
> which are screen-reader-accessible and some of which are not). A few
> hot-shot blind programmers are going into environments such as C# and
> java and more are working in interpretive languages such as Pithon.
> But, as Steve says, a number of us are going into other arenas such as network administration.
> Over the past few years, my government agency has gone from a HP
> OpenVMS environment to a windows environment (alas, I wish my agency
> had chosen
> UNIX) and so I'm having to come up to speed rather quickly to become
> an administrator of Windows Server ® 2008 R2 systems. When I began my
> employment 33 years ago, I was actually doing systems programming in
> assembly language and if we wanted data brought into our computer
> systems, we wrote the routines directly to do this including the
> drivers for the hardware that handled the data. No more. As Steve
> says, we have a lot of SQL and other packages running on servers
> running essentially what is Windows 7 on steroids -- Windows Server® 2008 R2.
>
> I'm not sure I'd advise programming as a good entry-level job path
> today either. But those who find it fascinating *can* find jobs. But
> the environment is much more competitive and fast-paced than it once
> was and many tasks these days are more one-off and less are continuing
> maintenance of existing tasks, at least in my shop.
>
> And all this is complicated by the almost paranoid interest in
> security these days. It often just about takes an act of Congress to
> get a screen-reader on one's work station now, for example. This may
> just be an artifact of the electric power system (where I work) but I
> suspect it goes further than this. I remember some time this year when
> one fellow was trying to figure out how to hook up his laptop with all
> his specialized blind-friendly programming tools on secure corporate
> networks where such connectivity is basically forbidden. I have
> somewhat the same problem in that I can't hook up my BrailleSensePLUS
> to my workstation without violating policies.
>
> So the environment isn't as straightforward as it once was.
>
> And I, too, take extra time and seldom put in for comp time even
> though I'm allowed to. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
>
> Mike Freeman
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> Jacobson
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:12 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>
> Generally I would agree with both of you, too, but what I would say
> for my two cents is that I don't know that I would start out now as a
> programmer if I was looking to work for a company. Certainly there
> are still programming jobs, but there are not the jobs there used to
> be. It is much, much more common now for companies to buy software
> that they can use to perform many of the functions they used to
> accomplish with in-house systems that were designed and written by
> their programmers and analysts. When companies need to have
> programming done, it is far more common now to contract it out or even outsource it to off-shore locations.
> However, there is a lot of need yet for people who are skilled in
> database design and knowing how to work with databases which includes
> a thorough knowledge of SQL. SQL isn't programming but is rewarding
> and challenging in its own way. There is quite a bit being done with
> networking, too, and there are some blind people who are involved with network administration.
>
> Of course, if one is thinking of developing software and wants to
> write it some themselves, a programming language is very important.
> Also, if one has his or her eyes on a specific area where programming
> is common, learning a programming language is still a good idea. I
> also think there is value to be gained by learning a programming
> language and writing something just to get a sense of what is
> necessary. I wonder, though, what the success rate is for blind
> persons or anyone for that matter, going to school to learn a
> programming language and then getting a good job. I am in a position
> where I work that occasionally has me looking at a COBOL program to
> see what is wrong with it. We still run a good bit of COBOL here, but
> the maintenance of COBOL is contracted out. My value to my company,
> probably more than programming, is my in depth knowledge of how the
> business processes relate to our computer systems. That has allowed
> me to take that expertise and bring it with me as I changed to a
> different computer platform, working primarily with databases. Like
> John, I anticipated where the need would be and felt I could do all
> right in the SQL environment and found reasons to learn quite a bit
> about that, some on my own time, so when there was a push in that
> direction, I had at least some of the tools I needed. For someone
> just starting out in this field, it is very important to look at the
> entire field, get some idea of what is interesting and also what fits
> ones strengths. One also needs to look at what one can do for a long
> enough time to get some understanding of how a given employer does business even if it isn't ideal, knowing one might be able to move into something they like better having gained that experience.
>
> Fifteen years ago, I would never have believed what a mixed bag
> accessibility still is. Unfortunately, there are going to be
> companies who are using tools that are inaccessible enough to make
> working for that company a loosing bet. I still maintain a hope that
> things will continue to improve, but it can still be a factor.
> Sometimes it is clearly the developers of software who are to blame,
> but some of the problem is that screen reader developers just don't
> have time to implement newer technologies that could be accessible
> because they are so busy chasing the development of the latest
> operating systems. I don't know the answer to that particular
> problem. Anyway, there are probably no exact answers, but hopefully our responses provide some useful food for thought.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:21:39 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>
> >I pretty much agree with everything you say below although I might
> >not paint quite such a dark picture. But, yeah, I feel I've
> been successful in my career by working harder than everybody else,
> putting in extra time to make up for being slower than the sighted
> guys, and doing a lot of research on my own time.
>
> >I also agree with the point about keeping your skills up. There is
> >this phenomenon I call "backwatering". New technologies tend
> to be inaccessible so a blind technologist doesn't get the assignment
> of working with them. Slowly, he becomes less and less crucial to his
> company because he's working with old technology. Then when layoffs
> come around, he's the one to go. And in some ways, that's only fair.
> After all, he is the least important member of the team.
>
> >IMO, its important to be very aggressive in pursuing new technologies.
> >I taught myself on my own time almost all the skills I use
> in my current job. I am sure there are jobs where that isn't necessary
> but they are few and far between. Also, to some degree it depends on
> what you want out of your career. I work for the University of
> Wisconsin and they don't layoff people very often. But a few years
> ago, I went to my boss and said I thought my skills were being wasted
> and that I could do a lot more, he said, "What's your problem? You're
> still getting paid, aren't you?" But I wasn't satisfied just pulling
> down a paycheck. Plus, I figured that eventually they'd get around to
> getting rid of me. So I switched jobs and got into a different department.
>
> >----Original Message-----
> >From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >majolls at cox.net
> >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:31 AM
> >To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >Cc: Tracy Carcione
> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
>
> >Working in the computer field is a challenging experience, especially
> >for a
> blind person (well partially sighted in my case).
> Here are some things to consider:
>
> >Know your craft thoroughly. Be as prepared with your programming
> >languages as you possibly can be. Corporations are looking for
> people that can solve a problem quickly and who know where to go look when
> they donâ¬"t know the answers. Therefore, you need to
> be as knowledgeable as you possibly can be in whatever programming
> languages you decide to work in.
>
> > Know your weaknesses and have solutions in place before you go get
> > the job. Itâ¬"s a competitive environment out there and the
> people that can get the job done right in the shortest amount of time
> at the least cost are the ones that seem to rise to the top at least in my company.
> You need to know any limitations your disability places on you and you
> need to have a solution BEFORE you go to the job so it doesnâ¬"t hurt
> you in your career and you can keep up with the normally sighted
> people. For example, my reading speed is about 130wpm. A normal person reads at about 250wpm.
> You can see it will take me twice as long reading as someone else. In
> my daily job, Iâ¬"m constantly reading code on the computer monitor.
> So you can see how a normal person without any vision issues will
> finish things before me. Doing your best in this case is not good
> enough because youâ¬"ll always be coming in last. And that equates to
> less money at your performance review. Trust me, I have 30+ years of
> experience to back me up on this. If you think Braille, for example,
> will help overcome slow reading, or using programs such as Jaws, learn
> it BEFORE you get to the job so thereâ¬"s no chance of supervisors forming opinions of how you work.
>
> >Know that the job will eventually change, and sooner than later. In
> >my job, new technologies are always coming up. The company
> is looking for faster and better ways of doing things. And that means
> theyâ¬"re trying new programming languages, new things to make us
> meaner and leaner programmers. And that means that you have to learn
> quickly, and probably more often than you would like. You may be
> required (not by your employer but just by the fact that you have to
> keep up) to spend extra hours in the evening learning if you donâ¬"t
> have enough time during the day. The years of learning a few things
> for your job and doing that for 5-10 years are gone. Figure on having
> to relearn your job every couple of years depending on what new thing is coming out.
> You have to ask yourself if you feel like keeping up like that all
> the time, or if your disability will put limitations on you there.
> You are definitely under pressure in these situations.
>
> >Be prepared to work overtime. If youâ¬"re in a professional job such
> >as I am and youâ¬"re not as fast as others, itâ¬"s going to
> take you more hours to do the same work in a time-frame that an
> employer considers normal. Iâ¬"ve come to the conclusion I can
> probably never please my employer. Or, if you have to do the training
> thing, you may not get it all done in the course of 8 hours. In my
> job, an 8 hour day is the thing of the past. I work more like a 10
> hour day just to stay even .. to make up for my poor eyesight. Even
> with technology such as screen magnification and speech, and Braille,
> I still work a 10 hour day. With the demands of the job, itâ¬"s just the standard.
>
> >So consider all these things. Perhaps you can assess your situation
> >and justify going into computer programming. It is a good
> career, but to keep up and compete is a challenge. Itâ¬"s even moreso
> with a vision disability in my opinion.
>
> >I don't want to throw cold water on things, but I've had a lot of
> >frustration in my career. It's no fun when you come in second
> most of the time and people seem to move ahead of you and nothing
> seems to work.
>
> >---- Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
> >> When I was looking for work with my programming certificate, I got
> >> an offer from the IRS, but the salary was very low, and any
> >> programming would have to be approved by head office in DC. I
> >> declined the offer, and soon got a much better one. Even though I
> >> started at a low, trainee salary, it was still significantly better
> >> than the IRS was offering. Though perhaps IRS salaries are the same
> >> across the country, and only low when compared to average New York salaries.
> >> Tracy
> >>
> >> > I googled tfor info on the program. A link is below. A one
> >> > paragraph summary is as follows...
> >> >
> >> >> Program Description: The Programming curriculum prepares clients
> >> >> to work
> >> > in a wide range of programming
> >> >> environments including .NET and JAVA, and other application
> >> >> projects as
> >> > well. Certification exams for JAVA and
> >> >> Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (MCPD) are offered
> >> >> through the
> >> > program. Some prior programming
> >> >> experience is helpful, but not necessary to be successful in
> >> >> this course.
> >> > This program often offers the opportunity to get
> >> >> a commitment for employment with the Internal Revenue Service.
> >> >
> >> > http://lwsb.org/index.php/general-overview/vocational-catalog/#co
> >> > nt
> >> > e
> >> > nt
> >> >
> >> > Wasn't it this list where we just had a huge debate about java?
> >> > I'm thinking java programming might be making a huge comeback in
> >> > writing apps for mobile phones. But I'll admit I don't really
> >> > know what I'm talking about. I would note, however, that the link
> >> > above indicates that the Lions web site itself is written in php,
> >> > not .net or
> java.
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> >> > Carcione
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:38 AM
> >> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Career Advice
> >> >
> >> > Hi Daniel.
> >> > I got a programming certificate, after I found I was going
> >> > nowhere with my college degree. I looked around, and found a
> >> > certificate course that taught the languages employers were
> >> > looking for at the time. It was local, not out-of-state.
> >> > If you do go to Lions World, try to make sure that they are
> >> > teaching languages that will actually be in demand.
> >> > Learning programming was a very good move for me. I have a
> >> > secure job that pays well, and is usually interesting. I'm not
> >> > sure if the IRS job pays well, or is interesting.
> >> > My brother is also a blind programmer, working for subcontractors
> >> > to the government. He gets paid OK, but gets laid off every few years.
> >> > So your results may vary. But I think he'd rather be programming
> >> > than having a rather dull but secure IRS job.
> >> > HTH.
> >> > Tracy
> >> >
> >> >> Hello Everyone:
> >> >>
> >> >> I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am legally blind with a background in engineering and manufacturing.
> >> >> After
> >> >> talking with many blind engineers, I find that many of them are
> >> >> thriving computer programmers.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am now trying to decide whether to go to Lions World in Little
> >> >> Rock to take their 10 month computer programming course. My
> >> >> counselor at my states agency for the blind wants me to go to
> >> >> Lions World but to take one of their IRS courses, which would in
> >> >> essence be a guaranteed job with the Feds.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am the type of person who could do any job, at least that is
> >> >> what my aptitude tests tell me.
> >> >>
> >> >> What is life like for blind computer programmers? Do most work
> >> >> for employers or as freelancers/contractors? Are there any
> >> >> languages in particular I should focus on? Are there any other
> >> >> ways of learning computer programming as a blind person than
> >> >> going out of
> state?
> >> >> Learning on my own is just not working for me.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards
> >> >>
> >> >> Daniel Garcia
> >> >> Northville, MI
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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