[nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again

Tue Feb 19 01:56:15 UTC 2013

Well, for the short term and on a large scale, I can only agree with 
you. Especially for those big corporate software developers with really 
well-developed, stable market shares. If they can keep selling it... Sigh.

Since I'm not personally in a position to go hire a lawyer and sue 
anyone into submission -- and would not want to be there! -- I guess I'm 
just trying to think of some other angles of approach that might nudge 
things in a more positive direction.

And I really do cheer those who do sue and win, and all those who put in 
the time and sweat on those big, long, hairy legislative efforts and the 
major suits like those against the universities that purchase 
inaccessible software and all the rest. Without all of those efforts, 
we'd all be sitting home without being able to use our computers at all 
to complain about problems at work because of computers. /smile/

The rest can supplement, as well, if on a smaller scale and over more 
time... So I'm not really advocating one approach over another or 
thinking I can come up with that one brilliant magical solution that is 
what we really need... Or could we have Dumbledore come back robed in 
white to throw Lord Voldemort into the Cracks of Doom and his little 
Ring, too... And why do I have to wait for my birthday to find out what 
happens at Shayol Ghul? /lol/

Tami

On 02/18/2013 01:06 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> Tami,
>
> I question to what degree most employers now care about usability.  I would even go a step further and say that many software
> developers care more about having a feature than how usable it is.  This isn't to say that what you say is wrong, rather I just
> have doubts that it can be leveraged to make change happen on a scale that we need it to happen.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:20 -0800, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>
>> Operation Fulcrum seems descriptive enough. /smile/
>
>> What I have found is that by tying accessibility to usability, it is
>> quite possible to draw the lines for an exec to the profit margin
>> because usability results in productivity.
>
>> It's also very possible to draw the connection in discussing the
>> development process, from several angles. Quite a lot of accessible
>> design for the officially disabled really benefits the usability for the
>> overall end user pool. So you can show benefit to more than that small
>> minority of employees.
>
>> The very small time (and thus expense) spent in building in that
>> accessibility/usability) from the outset can also be shown to save a lot
>> down the road for any application, from inhibiting the dreaded project
>> creep to work in all that useless whiz bang, to ease of maintenance and
>> upgrades for the application when it is in use.
>
>> And so on. I've had the advantage of working for small to medium sized
>> companies, where I often *was* the des/dev team, which probably made it
>> easier to communicate these points to the boss, or to the client. Well,
>> when I was starting out and charging by the hour, the fact that I was
>> pointing out that it was me they would paying less for better function
>> helped the sell. /lol/ But, of course, the benefit to me was better word
>> of mouth, so I gained more than I lost.
>
>> Drawing the profit lines is trickier when you factor in third-party
>> software firms... They're profiting by selling their behemoth
>> applications to corporations who are then vested in the product and
>> likely to buy the upgrades and hope for the best... The problems of
>> end-user productivity are not theirs, so why worry? Hm... A coordinated
>> communication/education effort might get somebody somewhere with some of
>> those bloated corporate software providers, but... Using the legal
>> options when possible as disincentive can be called communication and
>> education, too!
>
>> So our Operation Fulcrum is indeed a balancing act, isn't it?
>
>> Tami
>
>> On 02/17/2013 05:02 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>> Problem is that I don't believe companies can truly make a larger prophet by
>>> making things accessible. If we buy that one, we're only kidding ourselves.
>>>
>>> And half the time, we on this list can't solve the problems vicariously
>>> because each situation is different, the number of technologies being
>>> required to work together seamlessly presents a plethora of permutations and
>>> combinations that aren't easily anticipated and, in any event, we've agreed,
>>> at least in principle, that it is unrealistic to expect that all interfaces,
>>> software and such meet minimum standards for accessibility while having
>>> their fancy stuff not interfere.
>>>
>>> Let's face it, we're a small minority. So for the most part, the law,
>>> ineffective as it sometimes is, is about our only point of leverage.
>>>
>>> If we *did* do an investigation of this topic formally, would it be called
>>> Operation Fulcrum?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of david hertweck
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 4:07 PM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again
>>>
>>> You have good points, but the path that may help is.
>>> 1. share your problems on this list and let the talented people on this
>>> group pitch in to try and solve the problem.
>>> 2. I strongly believe if we can show companies how they can make a larger
>>> profit by making their product accessible this will work better than laws.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Larry Wayland
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 1:13 PM
>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again
>>>
>>> Dave, Gabe
>>> I agree with your points, especially the one about not griping on the job,
>>> but I think discussion should be wide open. Discussion is a normal thing in
>>> the work place and should include accessibility when necessary.
>>> Thinking outside the box is a good idea as well, but not everyone has that
>>> capability, at least to the point necessary to adapt work sites to the
>>> extent some of them need to be adapted.  Engineers are trained to think
>>> outside the box. Not everyone has that ability and there are job situations
>>> where thinking outside the box will do no good at all. I don't see what
>>> could be done to make a customer site accessible if is not. The companies
>>> using the software are not going to let you make changes to the software and
>>> all the work is right there in front of you either you can fill in the boxes
>>> or you can't. If you can talk the companies into letting you try to fix the
>>> problems with scripts or adjust the access software they sure are not going
>>> to give you much time. They want production and I don't blame them. The
>>> software should be accessible from the drawing board. I think only laws
>>> backed by education has any chance of working.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:43 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>
>>> David and Gabe, I'm sure we all know these points.  But, if the training is
>>> just not accessible, I can spend all the time in the world looking at it,
>>> and still be where I was when I started.  Now, I could possibly log in from
>>> home and hire someone at home to do the mouse clicking.  That will work for
>>> training that doesn't involve anything confidential.  Otherwise, if there's
>>> no one at work who can help me, I'm S.O.L.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "david hertweck" <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 8:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>
>>>
>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company I found
>>>> the best approach is:
>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of the box,
>>>> make it work.
>>>> 2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they are not
>>>> as effective as other people they put in the extra time so we should be
>>>> willing to do this.
>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours can not
>>>> interfere with others.
>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that person help
>>>> you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X" accessible for you.
>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in this forum
>>>> but not at work.
>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and certainly
>>>> more responsibilities than you do, so you should never add to them for
>>>> accessibility problems.
>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company for you.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> through out my work life
>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: majolls at cox.net
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>
>>>> Gary and all
>>>>
>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you "complain"?  If
>>>> you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do (too much) you are
>>>> perceived as a burden ... and managers would rather not deal with you and
>>>> get someone else that doesn't have the requirement that you do.  I work
>>>> for a large corporation.  I found that while managers can be sympathetic,
>>>> others just don't care.  it really depends on your luck of the draw
>>>> regarding what manager you do get.
>>>>
>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A presenter
>>>> would be running his demo, and the display was up on the "big screen".
>>>> Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I was just too far away
>>>> and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced concern, what I mostly got was
>>>> "just do your best" ... which was absolutely no help.  I finally came up
>>>> with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a separate monitor that can be
>>>> placed on a table that I can sit close to".  That idea really worked, but
>>>> it took me ... not them ... to come up with the idea.  The managers ...
>>>> who are supposed to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what
>>>
>>>> might work.  And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>>
>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the application
>>>> changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers have priorities on
>>>> what they have to get done.  When you require someone to sit with you
>>>> (meaning time and money) or when you ask your manager to help you ...
>>>> they'll do it as long as it isn't excessive ... meaning as long as it
>>>> doesn't take a lot of time and money.  If it does, you're kind of on your
>>>> own.  And as far as them modifying software to be accessible ... that's
>>>> only an option if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business
>>>> requirements" they have to get done first.  Where I'm at, that's always
>>>> the case.
>>>>
>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility programming so we
>>>> can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things to say, but I've only had
>>>> 35 years of experience in dealing with this.  And it doesn't sound like
>>>> the federal government is any better than private industry.  People
>>>> (managers) are people no matter where you go I suppose.
>>>>
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