[nfbcs] Ethics of screen reader friendly development
Larry Wayland
lhwayland at sbcglobal.net
Mon May 20 20:28:40 UTC 2013
I agree! Look at what extent people will go to make things accessible for
the large numbers. Roads, streets, highways, and freeways for our modern day
transportation. And before you all go saying that is for the good of all.
You are right, but making software accessible to blind people is also for
the good of all. Maybe in a smaller way, but still...
Saying that a company or agency needs to hire someone to read a computer
screen when software is not accessible just won't get it. That doesn't
happen often enough and causes a lot of blind people not to be able to land
jobs. I see no problem in asking developers to make their products
accessible, and when necessary try to force them.
-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 12:46 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Ethics of screen reader friendly development
First of all, you are disputing a point I never made. I never said that
accessibility is easy. To some degree, it's immaterial to my point because
it's a matter of doing as much as we can within reason. After all, it wasn't
easy to make our physical infrastructure wheelchair accessible.
But besides that, accessibility is not as hard as you make it out to be.
It's really not that different from wheelchair accessibility in that
absolute perfection is difficult if not impossible. But the problem itself
can essentially be eliminated with some effort. If our society put the same
amount of attention and effort into electronic accessibility for screen
readers as it put into physical accessibility for wheelchairs, the problem
could be essentially solved.
Probably the best example of this was the NFB's lawsuit against the
universities that were going to give all their students the Kindle book
reader even though it wasn't accessible. Asking Amazon to put a workable
screen reader on it's device was not asking for the moon. Apple's IOS
devices all come with a screen reader and there are several screen readers
developed completely by volunteers in their spare time. If they can do it,
Amazon, with it's vast resources could have done the same. If you compare
what we were asking from Amazon to the huge amount of resources put into
making our physical infrastructure wheelchair accessible, there's no
contest. We weren't asking for anything tougher for Amazon than we had asked
of the thousands upon thousands of businesses that had built or remodeled a
brick and mortar structure over the past couple of decades since the ADA was
passed.
PS: I don't understand how the distinction I'm making between legal and
ethical issues can cause so much confusion. The point I'm making isn't about
the specifics of accessibility laws but about whether such laws should exist
at all. Some people seem to think it's wrong to legislate accessibility.
That's an ethical issue, not a legal one.
The NFB's Kindle lawsuit is again a good example. It should be fairly
obvious to anyone that you could criticize the NFB's actions on either legal
or on ethical grounds. Regardless of the legal merits of the case, was it
ethical and/or fair for the NFB to keep all those students from getting
Kindles just because they were inaccessible to a few? My answer, of course,
is absolutely yes. My opinion is that it would have been unethical for the
NFB to not file suit. I'd say it was unethical for the universities to be
willing to leave blind students out like that.
Actually, the only reasonable way to criticize my argument is to say that
the huge amount of resources we put into making our country wheelchair
accessible wasn't worth it. The benefit from doing that wasn't worth the
cost.
On Jan 30, 2008, at 10:13 AM, pblackmer27 at gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> -original message-
> Subject: [nfbcs] Ethics of screen reader friendly development
> From: Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com>
> Date: 05/13/2013 10:15 AM
>
> John, I'm afraid you've managed to muddle this conversation
> considerably by blurring the lines between ethical and legal.
>
> Of course our society prefers that people be nice to each other and
> help out when possible. However, our legal system doesn't require it
> because there are times when help is unwanted, or too much of a
> burden for the helper.
>
> As for the ethics of accessibility, it really is hard to pin down.
> One reason it's so hard is that accessibility for blind folks doesn't
> have good requirements. We talk a lot about something being usable by
> the blind, but what a blind person can use will depend largely on the
> blind person.
>
> There are guidelines, WCAG and others, but nothing a software engineer
> can mark off pn a checklist. In order to get real accessibility, a
> software developer must be aware of all the technology that blind
> people use, code for those technologies, stage a user group of blind
> folks for testing, and then document and support the accessible
> version of the software.
>
> Imagine if we had the same lack of requirements for other types of
> accessibility such as closed captioning or wheelchair ramps. My guess
> is we'd have much less of those types of accessibility as well.
>
> Finally, to Mike's point, whether we like to admit it or not we are
> holding back new innovations in order to make or keep products
> accessible for us. My favorite example of this today is IOS and
> voiceover. Newer IOS apps have started using new gestures to access
> functions. However, since voiceover isn't aware of these new gestures,
> how could it be, these apps are not voiceover friendly. We can either
> try and stop app developers from innovatively trying new gestures, or
> we can push the voiceover developers to keep up with new gestures.
> Keeping up though is a loosing proposition because at some point two
> apps will use the same new gesture for totally different purposes.
>
> So, is it more ethical to hold back innovation or to leave out the
> disabled? My guess is that there's a middle ground to be figured out,
> but that means we also have to recognize that it's a game of
> negotiation we're playing, not a game of "we should have what everyone
> else has."
>
> Take Care,
>
> Jim
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:29:08AM -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>> Mike, you're trying to take both sides of a logical point here. Is
>> this an ethical question or a strictly utilitarian point you're
>> making? In other words, are you asking what's ethical or what works?
>> Either way, it isn't as simple as you seem to think.
>>
>> No reasonable person would say it's unethical for a society to demand
>> that it's members go out of their way to help others. Some people
>> seem to think that it's wrong to force people to be nice. But a
>> society just can't operate otherwise. You can't really have a society
>> where it's every man for himself and if you can't cut it, well, too
>> bad, you'll just have to die. You don't get a stronger society that
>> way, you get chaos. And it's neither ethical or practical.
>>
>> So the question really should be will accessibility work? Will this
>> be a stronger, better society if accessibility laws are passed and
>> enforced? My opinion is that it's an easy yes.
>>
>> It's fairly obvious that curb cuts and accessible bathrooms have been
>> an unqualified success. Besides bringing people in wheellchairs into
>> the mainstream, it has completely changed the way people in
>> wheelchairs are viewed by society. It's no longer a strange thing to
see a person in a
>> wheelchair on a bus or in an elevator. That access has completely
>> changed the way our society sees people in wheelchairs. If you are in
>> a wheelchair, you're still expected to get out there and get a job,
>> just like everyone else. It would be absurd these days for someone
>> who has all their faculties except use of their legs to say they can't
possibly get a job.
>> Everyone would assume their problem is more in their head than in
>> their legs.
>>
>> Those of us on this list may or may not consider it reasonable for a
>> blind person to say they can't get a job because they are blind. But
>> if you think the rest of the population sees it that way you are very
much mistaken.
>> Heck, many people think it's reasonable to kill yourself if you're blind.
>> nd. It's no longer blind people who need to be told that blindness
>> can be a mere nuisance, it's the general public. We need a cultural
>> shift like the one we've seen occur with people in wheelchairs over the
past few decades.
>> The way to make that shift happen is for accessibility for the blind
>> to become as much a part of our way of life as it is for people in
wheelchairs.
>> Sure, there will be a lot of grumbling but in the long run, we'll all
>> be better off for it.
>>
>> If you ask me if it's ethical for us to ask for laws that require
>> accessibility, my answer is that it's unethical for us not to.
>>
>> On 05/12/13 17:22, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>> Actually, there's an unspoken aspect to all this that most of us do
>>> not even dare to admit to ourselves: that is, while we want "equal
>>> access" -- whatever that is -- and believe that "the law" should be
>>> enough to guarantee it, what gives us, a small minority, the right
>>> to dictate to the majority (most workers) what software they can
>>> use? It puts us in an awkward position when great emphasis is placed
>>> these days upon "team play" etc. to say that most of the team can't
>>> use certain software because we can't access it. Of course this begs
>>> the larger question as to whether such inaccessible software should
>>> exist or not. But trying to mandate accessibility in an absolute
>>> sense amounts to fixing what software development techniques and
>>> tools can and cannot be used -- an effort that is, in the long run,
>>> doomed to fail; one cannot stop innovation and by its very
>>> definition, screen-reader manufacturers cannot adjust to innovations
they don't know about or that haven't been developed yet.
>>>
>>> This doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight for access as the present
>>> lawsuit does; we have no choice if we don't want to be returned to
>>> the rocking-chair. But until someone develops Mr. Data of STNG, we
>>> are going to be faced with that unspoken dilemma of which I write
>>> and it's not an easy thing to figure out how to get around it.
>>>
>>> Mike Freeman
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami
>>> Jarvis
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:13 AM
>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
>>>
>>> Tracy,
>>>
>>> Yeah, and I keep hearing these sorts of stories, where the laws are
>>> just flat out not followed.
>>>
>>> So I'm really interested in how the lawsuit Mike F. mentioned in an
>>> earlier post will come out after the long slog... It's depressing in
>>> a way, though I guess not all that surprising, that it's going to
>>> take at least as much hard work and effort to get teeth put in those
>>> laws as it was to get the laws in the first place... Sigh. Then
>>> again, I remember when those laws were being developed and then
>>> finally passed back in the day. Since I knew I would be blind sooner or
later, I paid attention.
>>> But, of course, I was not officially a disabled person then, so I
>>> got to hear the abled folks talk about the horrible imposition in
>>> the free way bigots talk when they assume you are one of Them...
>>> From what I recall of what of that was on my limited radar at the
>>> time, the reason the laws ended up toothless was that that was the
>>> only way they could be passed in the first place. Of course, I know
>>> a lot of you here had real skin in that game, so thanks! I've benefitted
from your hard work.
>>>
>>> But more remains now, for sure, to get penalties for violators. It's
>>> just unfortunate that it takes people who would rather be working
>>> for a living to have to take time out of their lives for lawsuits
instead.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 05/11/2013 05:48 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>> I know this is a ridiculous thing to say, but there is a law
>>>> requiring the government to only purchase accessible software,
>>>> right? Yet they're using JIRA, which Susie says is inaccessible.
>>>> Thus, they're breaking the law. I just thought it had to be said.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas
>>>> City, MO" <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 5:57 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The project lead sometimes has to use HP Quallity Center because
>>>>> the Testing and Certification Office is part of our team. We
>>>>> submit our software to them for their review before it goes to
>>>>> production. It would be handy if I could use it, but more handy if I
could use JIRA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Susie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>> Jacobson
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 2:24 PM
>>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] project tracking software
>>>>>
>>>>> Susie,
>>>>>
>>>>> That is interesting that the government is using HP Quality
>>>>> Center. I had trouble using it but it turned out I didn't have to
>>>>> so I did not pursue it. However, I thought it was more for
>>>>> developing and executing test cases, although maybe that is just one
use.
>>>>> Whether it helps or not, if I have to use it, knowing it is used
>>>>> by the government could give me more of a lever to get them to fix
>>>>> those things that don't appear to be accessible. Unfortunately, I
>>>>> think some of the problem I have seen with HPQC may have to do
>>>>> with screen readers not keeping up as well as they might with modern
web approaches.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 10 May 2013 13:59:16 +0000, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas
>>>>> City, MO wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good moring Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two different project and bug tracking programs used at
USDA.
>>>>>> They are JIRA which appears not to be accessible and HP
>>>>> Quallity Center which I am not forced to use. Do any of you
>>>>> successfully use project tracking software? I wish all I had to do
>>>>> in my job was code (grin).
>>>>>
>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> This electronic message contains information generated by the
>>>>>> USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized
>>>>> interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the
>>>>> information it contains may violate the law and subject the
>>>>> violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have
>>>>> received this message in error, please notify the sender and
>>>>> delete the email immediately.
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>
>> --
>> ---
>> John G. Heim, 608-263-4189, jheim at math.wisc.edu
>>
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