[nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page

Fri Nov 1 11:44:10 UTC 2013

Gary explained this very well. I don't usually get an assignment like this. It always seems a struggle to me to make sure I am doing my part. One of the things I do regularly is to assist folks in making their web pages accessible to me. Since I only know JAWS I can't guarantee Section 508 will be perfect but I can sure get them started down the right path. You would think in this computer age that my job got easier, but that is far from the truth. Even though the federal folks are not supposed to buy anything which is not accessible that doesn't happen. Our new telephones with a display screen are an example of the law not being followed.Please feel free to ask any more questions.

Susie Stanzel

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:42 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page

Gary

Thanks so much for the explanation.  That does give me a better idea of how a blind person does "see" the document and determine if things are setup according to the desired format.
I hope my request came across as genuine curiosity, because that's how it was intended.  I didn't want to be misconstrued as saying ... "well, I just don't see how a BLIND person could do that!!".  I've had that reaction leveled at me when I discuss blind people doing math, and it sure makes me hot under the collar.   What you said made logical sense.  I think we could say that necessity is the mother of invention.   Yes, you had to write some software to help yourself.  And yes, that was a pain.  And yes, I can see where you would wish you didn't have to do that.  But ... it was a means to an end.  You demonstrated your creativity.  We in the vision impaired community have all done it.

I kind of figured that you'd either get the hard data you needed, or you'd have the computer generate it, so that then you use that data .. those column numbers ... whatever, to provide a means to an end.

From: gwunder at earthlink.net
> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:35:23 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
>
> Hello, Mike. Before I became the editor of the Braille Monitor, I was
> a computer programmer for the University of Missouri Hospitals and Clinics.
> When I had to do column checking to make sure things were lined up
> correctly, I found it helpful to write a short utility that would
> start at whatever column I told it and read me out what appeared,
> starting in that column. I had an optional parameter saying how many
> characters the program was to read from the starting column. In this
> way I could quickly look through a file and get only the information I
> wanted to see. I was not happy about having to write a program to do
> what others could do it intuitively, but it was simple to write, and
> very helpful to use. Sometimes I had to be innovative and figure out
> how to get information I was writing to the screen to simultaneously
> be written to a file, because only if it was in a file could I examine
> it with the program I had written in Perl or PL/I or Cobol, depending on where I was in my career.
>
> Although I wanted to do as much of my job as I could without sighted
> assistance, there were times when I think doing so was impossible and
> other harder to call times when it was impractical. Sometimes asking
> for the assistance of a coworker required me to think about what I
> could do in return so that we had a fair trade of time and energy. At
> other times what I was asking was so insignificant that to worry about
> it would have itself been a time waster.
>
> I think that determining whether or not something is visually
> attractive is a tough nut to crack. In the first place one has to know
> what is considered visually attractive and in the second place has to
> know whether or not that has been achieved in the work performed. What
> I do now is relatively simple and straightforward in terms of
> producing an uncomplicated printed document, but even in this case I
> rely on at least two proofreaders who are going to be working from the
> document I have generated in Microsoft Word or the document that we
> end up generating to produce the print edition. Those of us who work
> on editing the monitor are not sloppy, but things do creep in that it
> takes a proofreader to see. Some of these are formatting errors that
> are not obvious using speech or braille, and some of them get through
> simply because we have looked at a document so many times that we fail to give it the same level of scrutiny that the proofreader applies.
>
> Susie may well have her own thoughts on all of this.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:46 PM
> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
>
> Susie
>
>
>
> Can I infer from your topic that you're totally blind?  Just asking
> because you said you're using a Focus 80 display to do this work.  But
> that's more a curiosity about you rather than making a statement or a judgement.
>
>
>
> In this next question, I don't mean to "stir things up".  I'm just curious.
> I'm wondering, how does a blind person go about evaluating a visual tool?
> If someone said ... "here's the page .. see if the columns line up"
> ... for example ... how would you do that if you were totally blind?
> Not saying it's impossible.  Obviously a sighted person would just
> look at it and make the determination if it was or wasn't as desired.
> Someone with vision loss or no vision might have to have a tool that
> provided adequate information to tell you about the data you want to
> compare.  For example, if you had to compare if certain boxes lined
> up, you might have a tool that provides starting column numbers.  Once
> you have the column numbers, it's just a matter of comparing them.
> But ... what tool or tools do you use to get the data?  Obviously,
> nothing is impossible if you can get the tool to give you the data on your terms, or you can get a sighted person to get you the data.
> Then it's just an exercise in thinking.  I'm just curious how you get
> the necessary data.
>
>
>
> Obviously you'd (or rather I should say I would) prefer to do this on
> your own ... have the tools so you can completely do it on your own
> ... so you can set a good example in front of your peers and your
> boss, but maybe that's not always possible.  You may just be limited
> to the tools you have (such as JAWS) and your ingenuity, and you may
> just have to ask for human help to get the information you need.  I'm
> also curious ... if you do have to ask for help, what does that do to the respect you get from co-workers?
> Are they less likely to give you really complicated programming tasks?
>
>
>
> OK, I've sort of asked two questions.  As I'm say, I'm just curious.
> Being a partially sighted person with usable vision, I can (to a
> point) get visual information, and I can do some of this visually.  So
> I don't have a total good feel for what someone with total vision loss has to go through.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the information
>
>
>
> Mike Jolls
>
>
>
> > From: Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov
> > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:17:20 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> > I have done that and they said to change my document presentation to
> screen layout. I did, but I am not sure that helped. I think I have it
> fixed so things are not wrapping now. I checked with my JAWS cursor.
> Now for how things are placed on the page, I plan to wait for sighted
> assistance on Monday when I return to the actual office.
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >
> > Susie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary
> > Wunder
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:55 AM
> > To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> > I would not neglect calling FS tech support to get a read on this.
> > My
> guess is that a bit of sighted help would serve you well.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> > Carcione
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:20 AM
> > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> > I'm surprised your solution doesn't work. I guess Jaws is changing
> > the
> screen layout?
> > My Alva display has different modes, line or structured. They
> > display data
> a little differently. Does your display have different display modes?
> > Jaws also has the mysterious invisible cursor, which might show
> > things
> differently from the plain Jaws cursor.
> > Sorry, I'm not being very helpful.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
> > <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
> > To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> >
> > > Hi Tracy,
> > >
> > > I don't have one. I have been using the JAWS cursor to go over a
> > > space at a time. I just thought if I could use my display and go
> > > down a column keeping my finger on the beginning of each column it
> > > would
> be great.
> > >
> > > Susie
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> > > Carcione
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:52 AM
> > > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > > Hi Suzy.
> > > Do you have an Optacon, by any chance? It works well with the new
> > > LCD monitors, and is still the best way to see independently what
> > > a layout looks like.
> > > Tracy
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
> > > <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
> > > To: <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:50 PM
> > > Subject: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi Everyone,
> > >>
> > >> I have been given an assignment to clean up the appearance of a
> > >> web
> page.
> > >> I have a Focus Blue 80 cell Braille display. I am just using it
> > >> in the normal mode. What I would like to do is actually see the
> > >> display which my sighted friends are seeing. I am tired of asking
> > >> if it looks better. Yes, I do think this is a unique assignment.
> > >> However, I know we have many web designors which obviously need
> > >> to have some idea of how something appears.
> > >> I tried using the JAWS cursor but I can see enough to know that
> > >> was not accurate.
> > >>
> > >> Susie Stanzel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
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