[nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page

Fri Nov 1 12:46:19 UTC 2013

Mike,

There are many programs like that. We are buying one from Deque Systems. I am part of the Section 508 team. We are working on some education for everyone which will be dependent on their specific job requirements. I am also working on learning Java and am expecting to take the certification test. I am very lucky to have a boss who allows me time to participate on the Section 508 team. I have had a good career with the USDA. I will complete 40 years on March 18th of next year. Feel free to keep these questions coming.

Susie

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 7:34 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page

Susie

I'm not surprised that sighted people are buying things that aren't accessible.  Notice I didn't say "government people aren't buying things that aren't accessible".  I make that distinction because at the end of the day, regardless of whether you're working for the government or not, people are human and they tend to gravitate towards what works for THEM.  They simply don't think of  ... unless you continually remind them ... and even then they still fall back to what comes naturally to them ... what is needed for accessibility.  At least that's my opinion.  Sure, they "feel sorry" for those of us who have disabilities, but as I see it, they make decisions based on what THEIR needs are.  This could come across as an angry comment towards sighted people, but it's not.  I simply believe this is human nature.

You mention the fact that you only know JAWS, so you can only make the web pages accessible with respect to JAWS.  That statement evoked a different thought.  Stated slightly differently ... sort of confirms what I said above.  Yes, you're the only one that knows JAWS, and YOU are the only one that knows it's requirements.  So if the other people who are sighted don't know JAWS, there's no way they can predict the impact a change they want to make will have.  That just substantiates what I said.  They program to what they know, and what their experience is.  And they don't realize or think of the impact of what they do with respect to accessibility because they don't have to deal with the results of what they do the same way you do.  And then at the end of the day, any blind person has to try to react to what they've done, and sometimes you can only "do the best you can" because there's no easy answer.

I think you may have hit on something when you said ... "in this computer age, there has to be a better way".  I think one thing that could help is if we had some way to develop a series of predefined functions or library of functions that regular developers could run their code against that could guarantee the code for the web pages was going to work with our accessibility software.  The functions would allow the developers to maybe pass in their new features .. maybe send in an HTML string that is used in the new web page ... and have the function evaluate that HTML and tell whether it is compliant with respect to JAWS, or MAGIC, or NVDA, etc ... So then if you , as the accessibility person, developed the function .. and for example ... programmed it so that passing in an <BODY><SCRIPT TYPE="text/javascript"></SCRIPT></BODY> string caused a "success" answer to be returned, then ... for that function ... the programmer would know that his HTML was compliant.  If the programmer passed in something that wasn't compliant with the rules of the function, it would return false and the programmer would know his HTML wasn't compliant.  Such a set of functions would require a LOT of research and planning, and the examination of HTML would have to be kept up to date with new HTML features that were on the horizon.  And as we know, new features come along quite frequently, so I'm guessing this could be a full-time job for an accessibility developer.  And this might be a great opportunity for blind programmers because they'd be the best people to know the impact of changes, and they'd have the most investment to get the rules right so they'd help others.  Once the set of functions were written, they would give developers a tool to use to know if their HTML code was compliant, rather than just telling them "you need to make your code compliant" and then not giving them the tools to enable them to know whether it was.  Hmmmm.. I wonder if this type of work could turn into a government job?  It makes me wonder if I should go to work for the government .. .seriously.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

> From: Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov
> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:44:10 +0000
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> 
> Gary explained this very well. I don't usually get an assignment like this. It always seems a struggle to me to make sure I am doing my part. One of the things I do regularly is to assist folks in making their web pages accessible to me. Since I only know JAWS I can't guarantee Section 508 will be perfect but I can sure get them started down the right path. You would think in this computer age that my job got easier, but that is far from the truth. Even though the federal folks are not supposed to buy anything which is not accessible that doesn't happen. Our new telephones with a display screen are an example of the law not being followed.Please feel free to ask any more questions.
> 
> Susie Stanzel
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Jolls
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:42 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> 
> Gary
> 
> Thanks so much for the explanation. That does give me a better idea of how a blind person does "see" the document and determine if things are setup according to the desired format.
> I hope my request came across as genuine curiosity, because that's how it was intended. I didn't want to be misconstrued as saying ... "well, I just don't see how a BLIND person could do that!!". I've had that reaction leveled at me when I discuss blind people doing math, and it sure makes me hot under the collar. What you said made logical sense. I think we could say that necessity is the mother of invention. Yes, you had to write some software to help yourself. And yes, that was a pain. And yes, I can see where you would wish you didn't have to do that. But ... it was a means to an end. You demonstrated your creativity. We in the vision impaired community have all done it.
> 
> I kind of figured that you'd either get the hard data you needed, or you'd have the computer generate it, so that then you use that data .. those column numbers ... whatever, to provide a means to an end.
> 
> 
> From: gwunder at earthlink.net
> > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:35:23 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> > Hello, Mike. Before I became the editor of the Braille Monitor, I 
> > was a computer programmer for the University of Missouri Hospitals and Clinics.
> > When I had to do column checking to make sure things were lined up 
> > correctly, I found it helpful to write a short utility that would 
> > start at whatever column I told it and read me out what appeared, 
> > starting in that column. I had an optional parameter saying how many 
> > characters the program was to read from the starting column. In this 
> > way I could quickly look through a file and get only the information 
> > I wanted to see. I was not happy about having to write a program to 
> > do what others could do it intuitively, but it was simple to write, 
> > and very helpful to use. Sometimes I had to be innovative and figure 
> > out how to get information I was writing to the screen to 
> > simultaneously be written to a file, because only if it was in a 
> > file could I examine it with the program I had written in Perl or PL/I or Cobol, depending on where I was in my career.
> >
> > Although I wanted to do as much of my job as I could without sighted 
> > assistance, there were times when I think doing so was impossible 
> > and other harder to call times when it was impractical. Sometimes 
> > asking for the assistance of a coworker required me to think about 
> > what I could do in return so that we had a fair trade of time and 
> > energy. At other times what I was asking was so insignificant that 
> > to worry about it would have itself been a time waster.
> >
> > I think that determining whether or not something is visually 
> > attractive is a tough nut to crack. In the first place one has to 
> > know what is considered visually attractive and in the second place 
> > has to know whether or not that has been achieved in the work 
> > performed. What I do now is relatively simple and straightforward in 
> > terms of producing an uncomplicated printed document, but even in 
> > this case I rely on at least two proofreaders who are going to be 
> > working from the document I have generated in Microsoft Word or the 
> > document that we end up generating to produce the print edition. 
> > Those of us who work on editing the monitor are not sloppy, but 
> > things do creep in that it takes a proofreader to see. Some of these 
> > are formatting errors that are not obvious using speech or braille, 
> > and some of them get through simply because we have looked at a document so many times that we fail to give it the same level of scrutiny that the proofreader applies.
> >
> > Susie may well have her own thoughts on all of this.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike 
> > Jolls
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:46 PM
> > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> >
> > Susie
> >
> >
> >
> > Can I infer from your topic that you're totally blind? Just asking 
> > because you said you're using a Focus 80 display to do this work. 
> > But that's more a curiosity about you rather than making a statement or a judgement.
> >
> >
> >
> > In this next question, I don't mean to "stir things up". I'm just curious.
> > I'm wondering, how does a blind person go about evaluating a visual tool?
> > If someone said ... "here's the page .. see if the columns line up"
> > ... for example ... how would you do that if you were totally blind?
> > Not saying it's impossible. Obviously a sighted person would just 
> > look at it and make the determination if it was or wasn't as desired.
> > Someone with vision loss or no vision might have to have a tool that 
> > provided adequate information to tell you about the data you want to 
> > compare. For example, if you had to compare if certain boxes lined 
> > up, you might have a tool that provides starting column numbers. 
> > Once you have the column numbers, it's just a matter of comparing them.
> > But ... what tool or tools do you use to get the data? Obviously, 
> > nothing is impossible if you can get the tool to give you the data on your terms, or you can get a sighted person to get you the data.
> > Then it's just an exercise in thinking. I'm just curious how you get 
> > the necessary data.
> >
> >
> >
> > Obviously you'd (or rather I should say I would) prefer to do this 
> > on your own ... have the tools so you can completely do it on your 
> > own ... so you can set a good example in front of your peers and 
> > your boss, but maybe that's not always possible. You may just be 
> > limited to the tools you have (such as JAWS) and your ingenuity, and 
> > you may just have to ask for human help to get the information you 
> > need. I'm also curious ... if you do have to ask for help, what does that do to the respect you get from co-workers?
> > Are they less likely to give you really complicated programming tasks?
> >
> >
> >
> > OK, I've sort of asked two questions. As I'm say, I'm just curious.
> > Being a partially sighted person with usable vision, I can (to a
> > point) get visual information, and I can do some of this visually. 
> > So I don't have a total good feel for what someone with total vision loss has to go through.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the information
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Jolls
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov
> > > To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:17:20 +0000
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > > I have done that and they said to change my document presentation 
> > > to
> > screen layout. I did, but I am not sure that helped. I think I have 
> > it fixed so things are not wrapping now. I checked with my JAWS cursor.
> > Now for how things are placed on the page, I plan to wait for 
> > sighted assistance on Monday when I return to the actual office.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help.
> > >
> > > Susie
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary 
> > > Wunder
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:55 AM
> > > To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > > I would not neglect calling FS tech support to get a read on this.
> > > My
> > guess is that a bit of sighted help would serve you well.
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
> > > Carcione
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:20 AM
> > > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > > I'm surprised your solution doesn't work. I guess Jaws is changing 
> > > the
> > screen layout?
> > > My Alva display has different modes, line or structured. They 
> > > display data
> > a little differently. Does your display have different display modes?
> > > Jaws also has the mysterious invisible cursor, which might show 
> > > things
> > differently from the plain Jaws cursor.
> > > Sorry, I'm not being very helpful.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
> > > <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
> > > To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:59 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Tracy,
> > > >
> > > > I don't have one. I have been using the JAWS cursor to go over a 
> > > > space at a time. I just thought if I could use my display and go 
> > > > down a column keeping my finger on the beginning of each column 
> > > > it would
> > be great.
> > > >
> > > > Susie
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
> > > > Carcione
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:52 AM
> > > > To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> > > > Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > >
> > > > Hi Suzy.
> > > > Do you have an Optacon, by any chance? It works well with the 
> > > > new LCD monitors, and is still the best way to see independently 
> > > > what a layout looks like.
> > > > Tracy
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
> > > > <Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov>
> > > > To: <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:50 PM
> > > > Subject: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Everyone,
> > > >>
> > > >> I have been given an assignment to clean up the appearance of a 
> > > >> web
> > page.
> > > >> I have a Focus Blue 80 cell Braille display. I am just using it 
> > > >> in the normal mode. What I would like to do is actually see the 
> > > >> display which my sighted friends are seeing. I am tired of 
> > > >> asking if it looks better. Yes, I do think this is a unique assignment.
> > > >> However, I know we have many web designors which obviously need 
> > > >> to have some idea of how something appears.
> > > >> I tried using the JAWS cursor but I can see enough to know that 
> > > >> was not accurate.
> > > >>
> > > >> Susie Stanzel
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
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