[nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of a web page

Jim Barbour jbar at barcore.com
Tue Nov 5 00:29:37 UTC 2013 

Wow, a lot to say here.

First, legally Google doesn't have to make its offerings accessible
yet.  This may change over time, but right now the only legal barriers
are for purchasers/providers.  For example, the federal government is
not supposed to purchase computer software that's not usable by people
with disabilities.

However, if Google wants their stuff to be accessible, they'll have to
help.  Basically, web app developers, browser developers, and screen
reader developers have to figure out a way to communicate
accessibility related information to amongst themselves.  There are
now standards (ARIA and WCAG 2.0) to smooth this along, and sometimes
Google adheres to them and sometimes they don't.

As someone mentioned earlier, one of Google's strategies is to build
the apps, browser, and screen reader themselves.  This is probably the
easiest for Google, but does have the strong disavantage of requiring
everyone to learn the Google screen reader (ChromeVox) to make use of
Google products.  Fortunately, this strategy is not embraced by all
of Google.

BTW, we haven't even touched on Android, where Google is also putting
a lot of accessibility effort, though not enough I'm afraid.  

Take Care,

Jim

On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 07:07:21PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I will be interested to know which screen reader manufacturer first 
> evaluates a new Microsoft offering for being some level of environment 
> both for the user and the developer and decides not to produce a screen 
> reader because they later announce publicly that for our users this 
> particular Microsoft offering is a real skunk.  Vista in its earlier 
> existence certainly qualified if for no other reason than poor network 
> operations.  Even now, it's being patched almost daily.  One would hope 
> the need to patch operating systems slowed down the farther into the 
> life cycle those systems got, notwithstanding security patches though 
> especially in Microsoft's case.  Remember too, priority of screen reader 
> manufacturers is to make a new screen reader version for the new 
> microsoft windows each time that happens too, I just wish the screen 
> reader manufacturers would be a little less blind about it themselves.
> 
> On Mon, 4 Nov 2013, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
> 
> > Keep in mind also that Google is putting most of it?s accessibility effort into ChromeVox.
> > Thus the Google web screens are much easier to access with ChromeVox than native Jaws or Voiceover.
> > The assumption being made by Google is that one will use ChromeVox regardless of the target platform I.E., Windows, Mac, Linux, Chrome OS.  Native Jaws or VoiceOver really get?s second priority.
> > 
> > -Kevin
> > 
> > On Nov 4, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Jim,
> > > 
> > > One struggle I have is that I think in some cases Google is trying to do some leading edge stuff that perhaps 
> > > could be accessible but isn't supported well by screen readers.  Our only choice to some degree is to ask 
> > > companies like Google to slow down, but I really think we need to get a better handle on what the limits are to 
> > > current accessibility and when we need to pressure screen readers and when we need to pressure companies to 
> > > conform some to existing standards and good practices.  From what I know of screen reader development, the problem 
> > > isn't simply that screen readers don't bother supporting what might be supported better but that they are having 
> > > to try to support so much that is new that they can't keep up.  What I don't think people recognize is that the 
> > > more resources one puts into a project, the more management overhead is also added.  I don't think it is even 
> > > proportional, the ratio goes up faster.  By management overhead, I don't mean people as much as all that has to be 
> > > done to track changes and test new features as well as making sure old features are not broken in the process.  I 
> > > have found, for example, that some of Google's pages work better when one turns off JFW's virtual cursor or 
> > > Window-Eyes' Browse Mode.  Unfortunately, there are still gaps, but it causes me to unsure when I should be 
> > > complaining to Google and when it is the screen readers.  I also don't know how to resolve this adequately.  I 
> > > really think we as consumers need to somehow understand this better as we move forward.
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > > 
> > > Steve Jacobson
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 13:47:25 -0800, Jim Barbour wrote:
> > > 
> > >> It is true that Google, and every other web application developer,
> > >> releases code far more frequently than older PC based software did.
> > >> However, it's still a good idea to let google know when you find thuff
> > >> that doesn't work.
> > > 
> > >> The same is true for Apple.
> > > 
> > >> I don't know why, but we blind folks seem especially unwilling to
> > >> speak up and let companies know when stuff isn't working for us.  We
> > >> seem to have the rather toxic idea that "they should know if
> > >> accessibility is broken and if they don't want to fix it then I'm
> > >> going to help them."
> > > 
> > >> Jim
> > > 
> > >> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 01:40:37PM -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
> > >>> The problem is that "fixes" may not stick. Google is tinkering with its
> > >>> stuff constantly. The phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is not in
> > >>> their vocabulary.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Mike Freeman
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
> > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 3:16 PM
> > >>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> > >>> Subject: [nfbcs] Google Accessibility was RE: evaluation display of a web
> > >>> page
> > >>> 
> > >>> April and all, if you are having problems with Google products, please let
> > >>> them know. They may not be able to fix it right away, but they still want to
> > >>> know and might be able to tell you some kind of work around. 
> > >>> 
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of April Brown
> > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 2:05 PM
> > >>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> > >>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] evaluation display of a web page
> > >>> 
> > >>> Ten years or so ago, I learned HTMl and attempted to code accessible from
> > >>> W3schools.  They do have Code check.  I don't think it's that good.  In the
> > >>> last year I have lost most of my vision, and much of my hearing, so it's
> > >>> even more important than ever!  And I always wanted to code accessible.
> > >>> Though, knowing some varying issues, especially with vision, I'm not 100%
> > >>> sure it is possible to code for every variation.  I may be wrong.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Hi *Susan Stanzel,  It would be wonderful if programs on both ends could fix
> > >>> the issues to make websites more accessible.  And I agree.  I have tried to
> > >>> learn NVDA, and well, learning keyboard workarounds is ten times harder than
> > >>> HTML ever was!
> > >>> 
> > >>> Hi ***Mike Jolls - Since you evaluate websites for accessibility, can I ask
> > >>> you a question?  For the last few years, my author website has been on a
> > >>> Google site.  Are Google websites accessible?  I can change some of the
> > >>> coding, though much of what I think would need to be adjusted is not
> > >>> accessible to the page holders that I can find.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Thanks.  Still new to the world of mostly deaf and blind, and the screen
> > >>> readers that confuse me when they don't just work when I open the page.*
> > >>> 
> > >>> *
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
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> > >>> m
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
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> > >>> 
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> > > 
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > 
> > 
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> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> jude <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
> Avoid the Gates Of Hell, use Linux!
> 
> 
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