[nfbcs] Sonar or Vinux
Littlefield, Tyler
tyler at tysdomain.com
Fri Jul 25 02:47:49 UTC 2014
So basically Linux is secure by obscurity. Actually, plenty of Linux
boxes are on people's botnets. They're actually high targets because
they usually have a compiler, have lots of tools ready to use and are
great launchpads for attacks. Plenty of people also do run antivirus for
Linux, it's called clamav. Microsoft does have an app store, it was
introduced with windows 8. Finally, just because there is a central
archive doesn't mean that molicious software can't be installed. Just
look at heartbleed (which has client and messenger implications), etc.
that wasn't molicious, but it's not like the debian archives did
anything to solve that problem. By your count, there are thousands of
packages that can be installed, totaling I'm sure a few hundred million
lines of code all told. Do you honestly believe that all of that code is
checked? Because if not, then your archive, which is supposed to make
Linux more secure than windows is just that, an archive and holds no
extra benafit for the user beyond that of a central repository from
which to download software.
On 7/24/2014 10:17 PM, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
> Has anyone ever heard of someone's system getting hacked because they
> installed linux and the portmap daemon was turned on by default? That
> kind of thing just doesn't happen. It's like saying Ohio is a better
> place to live then massachusetts because Ohio is easier to spell.
> Most people wouldn't consider it a significant factor. Neither is the
> Windows default firewall. These are trivial points that no real
> security expert would place much value on.
>
> The bad guys out there aren't looking around for machines with the
> portmap daemon running. If you are running a high profile target,
> you'd better turn that off. But nobody is going to hack your desktop
> machine if you leave the portmap daemon running. On the other hand,
> they are trying to hack into your machine by sending you a virus.
> Which is why it's crazy to say it doesn't matter that the vast
> majority of viruses are written for Windows. Is there anyone on this
> list who doesn't know someone who's Windows machine got a virus? Have
> you ever heard of a linux machine being part of the bot-net of some
> hacker in Russia? Those are all Windows machines.
>
> It's crazy to say that open source software isn't safer than
> proprietary. Most linux systems don't even run virus software and
> that's because almost everything you install is from an official
> source. Everything you need is in the Red Hat, debian or ubuntu
> archive. The concept is a little like Apple IOS. You have to unlock
> your IPhone to install software from a place other than the Apple
> Store. Well, it's not quite so difficult on a linux system to install
> software from an unofficial source, But if you stick to the official
> archives, which almost everybody does, you will be fine. Maybe you
> also install from the dropbox or skype archives. But you're not going
> to get a virus from them either. If you run linux, there are literally
> thousands of programs, totally free, at your fingertips, that you can
> install with complete confidence. Where is Microsoft's package archive?
>
> On 07/24/2014 09:43 AM, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
>> With various Linux distributions, it's possible to operate using a
>> livecd or livedvd or flash drive. if the first two are closed session
>> media and the flash drive is write-protected before booting that can
>> make life slightly more difficult for hackers. I know sighted people
>> who only do banking transactions using a liveCD or livedvd for this
>> reason. I don't recall any livedvd distributions of any version of
>> windows ever being available. Not only that, in order to even install
>> Windows 7 you have to have a hard drive permanently installed in a
>> computer you cannot use a drive sled. I know this since that was the
>> first way me and another programmer tried installing windows 7.
>>
>> On Thu, 22 May 2014, Nancy Coffman via nfbcs wrote:
>>
>>> You make a good point. It is also noteworthy that people who want to
>>> invade our privacy and hack our security spend time staring at
>>> security code.
>>>
>>> Nancy Coffman
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On May 22, 2014, at 11:49 AM, "Littlefield, Tyler via nfbcs"
>>>> <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello:
>>>> My experiences come from watching the Vinux list a while back,
>>>> though this may just be the point of view of some of the more
>>>> radical vinux folks. I know a lot of people switch for various
>>>> reasons, but for a long time, at least in the Vinux world a lot of
>>>> people were switching over for some vague hope of higher security.
>>>> This actually brings up a fun topic though, so I'm going to run
>>>> with it, because I'm really curious what other people's thoughts are.
>>>>
>>>> I do not believe it really depends on how many viruses are written
>>>> for what OS when you talk about security in general. My view of
>>>> security is a system that is provided to the end-user with a very
>>>> minimal attack surface. Obviously the only way to truly avoid that
>>>> attack surface is to just unplug the system in question. So, lets
>>>> look at this scenario. Many unix systems come with nothing at all
>>>> enabled, which is great. Others come with stuff like Portmap for
>>>> RPC, nfs and etc already enabled. Windows also comes with services
>>>> enabled.
>>>>
>>>> The bonus points I'll give to Windows is they have a firewall, with
>>>> a default slightly restrictive policy enabled that helps with some
>>>> of these issues, where as any installation of Ubuntu or even Debian
>>>> does not have a default iptables ruleset to prevent access to these
>>>> attack vectors.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, Windows has pretty much kept up in terms of technologies
>>>> like ASLR, etc. It might be easier to say that one system is by
>>>> default more secure than another, but in this case I think it is
>>>> -really- important to specify which Linux or even Unix derivative
>>>> we are speaking of here. I also believe that with work, any system
>>>> can be secured; out of the box security is hardly a viable options
>>>> for end-user systems.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I want to touch on the open source comment you gave,
>>>> because I find that really interesting. I understand the ideas of
>>>> open source vs closed source to a point, but I would argue that
>>>> having millions of people staring at the code for a long time
>>>> doesn't necessarily mean more secure code. Case and point: the most
>>>> recent Open SSL heartbleed bug, which had apparently existed since
>>>> late 2011. while I believe there is a greater chance of finding
>>>> these vulnorabilities, the issue is going to be hampered by the
>>>> vast amount of code that libraries like Open SSL contain. I would
>>>> also argue that having people stare at the code doesn't even mean
>>>> that those people are going to be compitant in terms of security.
>>>> Really truly detecting security problems through a huge codebase
>>>> requires people who know about security to fully audit the code, as
>>>> is the current case with the Open BSD fork of Open SSL, as well as
>>>> projects like Truecrypt, etc.
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/22/2014 11:51 AM, John Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>> I doubt the vinux or sonar developers ever put any thought into
>>>>> why people might want to try linux. Why would they care if people
>>>>> are trying it because they think it will help them get a job in IT
>>>>> or because they think it's more secure?
>>>>>
>>>>> Your experience with people trying linux is certainly far
>>>>> different from mine. I don't know anybody who has tried it because
>>>>> they think it's more secure. Everybody I know who has tried it has
>>>>> done so because they are are already in systems admin and want to
>>>>> find out about linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: I kind of object to your saying linux is not a more secure
>>>>> operating system as if that's an established fact. That's a huge
>>>>> matter of debate. There is no denying that the vast majority of
>>>>> viruses are written for Windows. I know the usual response is that
>>>>> that is only because Windows is so much more popular than linux.
>>>>> But then you have to get into theoretical issues about open source
>>>>> versus proprietary software. I side with the open source people on
>>>>> that issue too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 05/22/14 10:21, Littlefield, Tyler via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>> I don't think the goal was to aid in getting Linux-based
>>>>>> employment; I think the overall goal was to provide an accessible
>>>>>> distro. Generally you'll hear lots of rantings and ravings, but
>>>>>> most people seemed to switch because they think linux is more
>>>>>> "secure" by default with no bases for that assumption. At least
>>>>>> it's generally what I hear and see advertised by all the
>>>>>> blindness companies that are selling "custom" computers with
>>>>>> Vinux installed.
>>>>>>> On 5/22/2014 11:15 AM, Jim Barbour via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>> I will point out that this is why I'm not a fan of either
>>>>>>> distro. The
>>>>>>> blindness world isn't big enough to command a lot of attention. The
>>>>>>> attention we get should be focused on making the distros themselves
>>>>>>> easier for us to use. Efforts that try to fork distros, like
>>>>>>> Ubuntu
>>>>>>> and arch, into blindness focused ones, like vinux and sonar, do not
>>>>>>> really help the situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Further, a blind person isn't going to be able to require that all
>>>>>>> unix machines they manage run a blindness friendly distro; so this
>>>>>>> definately doesn't help blind folks get LInux related employment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JIm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 11:02:19AM -0400, Littlefield, Tyler
>>>>>>>> via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>> That's pretty much how it happened. Bill was basically project
>>>>>>>> lead and took
>>>>>>>> over everything with some guy from Ubuntu who was back and
>>>>>>>> forth, think his
>>>>>>>> name was tony. Or maybe that was the main guy, it's been a
>>>>>>>> while. Eventually
>>>>>>>> he just gave it up. My biggest issue is a lot of people call it
>>>>>>>> a "secure
>>>>>>>> OS," including commtechusa if you care to look at that site. I
>>>>>>>> was just
>>>>>>>> curious what they offered. Last I looked, Vinux recommended not
>>>>>>>> updating and
>>>>>>>> they were on an older version of Ubuntu--both not really paths
>>>>>>>> to security.
>>>>>>>> The updates was because things would break, but that still
>>>>>>>> means you're not
>>>>>>>> all that secure if you ever leave your house and your personal
>>>>>>>> router.
>>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2014 9:44 AM, John Heim via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>>> My experience as of about 1 year ago was that sonar was a way
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> polished product than vinux. I've seen a lot of questions
>>>>>>>>> about vinux like
>>>>>>>>> when is the new version coming out, why is it still based on
>>>>>>>>> some old
>>>>>>>>> version of ubuntu. Like so many open source projects, there
>>>>>>>>> was probably
>>>>>>>>> one person, maybe two, driving the project and when they ran
>>>>>>>>> out of steam,
>>>>>>>>> the project slowed to a crawl.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was so impressed with sonar that I put it on my machine at
>>>>>>>>> home. And I
>>>>>>>>> put it on what I call my drop dead emergency machine here at
>>>>>>>>> work. Sonar
>>>>>>>>> is that solid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The one problem I have with sonar is that they are switching
>>>>>>>>> from basing
>>>>>>>>> their distro on ubuntu to basing it on arch linux. I will
>>>>>>>>> probably drop
>>>>>>>>> sonar once that conversion is complete. I have to stay with a
>>>>>>>>> debian fork
>>>>>>>>> because my job is to support debian. What I'd really like is
>>>>>>>>> to have
>>>>>>>>> debian be so accessible that we wouldn't need either sonar or
>>>>>>>>> vinux. Well,
>>>>>>>>> one can dream.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 05/21/14 20:05, David Andrews via nfbcs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jim et al:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have a Windows XP laptop that I am thinking of installing a
>>>>>>>>>> Linux
>>>>>>>>>> system on, to play and learn a little. What are
>>>>>>>>>> advantages/disadvantages to Sonar versus Vinux?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
>>>>>>>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
>>>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>> jude <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
>>
>>
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>
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--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
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