[nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility, standards, and legal requirements.
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Fri Mar 7 15:34:13 UTC 2014
Mike,
I also believe that we had better not forget how to use readers. I think your point is well taken. I'm not
certain that we disagree at all, either, I just think this issue is important enough that we have to look at all
possibilities and not put all of our eggs in the legislation and standards basket, although we need to see what
that route can bring us. I've probably said more than enough on all this, but my assumption wasn't that we
disagreed, rather I think we're attacking different aspects of the problem to some degree.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 19:32:49 -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
>Hey Steve!
>I don't disagree with you. However, I am sufficiently pessimistic that I'm
>not certain that we will ultimately have a choice other than to use readers
>-- even if this results in some inconvenience. I'm not *advocating* use of
>readers -- I just think the technology isn't available yet that is flexible
>enough without placing untenable limits on its input to give us a fighting
>chance at interaction.
>Mike
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 7:28 PM
>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility, standards, and
>legal requirements.
>Mike,
>While I am one who advocates that we used readers rather than letting
>technology stop us, I think that current and future technology requirements
>mean that we have to find ways to maximize accessibility. It could be that
>laws will have to be used to provide us with a sort of safety-net of
>technology. What I find on my job is that it is not as easy any more to
>structure work to make efficient use of readers. Some may disagree with me,
>but I don't think it is going to be sustainable to hire a fulltime reader as
>a reasonable accommodation for the long run. It is rare that one could do
>that in the private sector even though some have been lucky enough to have
>that happen. Paying for readers ourselves has always been an option, but
>there are limits. With today's technology, reading remotely is possible now
>and that might open up some options. Still, I recently heard an ad for a
>water softener which stated that you can now reset your water softener with
>a simple touch screen. We need to do what we can to avoid having to have
>fulltime data attendants, but no how to use readers when we need to rather
>than not getting things done.
>You are correct about my thermostat example, that reading the display
>doesn't tell you everything, but my point was that we need to be aware of
>when we expect the rest of the world to follow a given standard and when we
>can make our screen readers not require that standard. We should take care
>to explore the limits of what our access software can do to make standards
>as general and least restrictive as possible. When I say "we," I don't mean
>average screen reader users, but the companies that develop them and
>whatever additional research we can find a way to undertake.
>Best regards,
>Steve Jacobson
>On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 14:29:52 -0800, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>Right you are, both Doug and Steve. Laws and regulations are very
>>important but they are insufficient, especially in technological
>>environments which are changing very rapidly. Part of the problem is
>>that those who implement or must abide by these laws and regulations
>>want clarity and specificity -- if I conform to the six hundred
>>forty-eight directives shown in Guideline X, I will have ensured
>>accessibility and will be in compliance with the law and thus am immune
>>from being sued. Yet this is precisely what cannot be guaranteed in
>>general although NFB is taking a stab at it in the educational
>>environment with the TEACH Act proposal. After all, by definition we
>>cannot foretell the future (neither Nostradamus nor Edgar Casey were
>>lawyers and neither is around anymore -- grin). The software the R&D
>>Committee was looking at years ago to analyze computer screens and the
>>LCD display device Steve was playing with may be a partial solution but
>>neither tells the blind person what he/she must do to act upon the
>information the screen or display is conveying.
>>We should by all means continue to work on laws, regulations and
>>devices to help us. But I am not sanguine that we will come anywhere
>>near close to a solution to our accessibility problems anytime soon.
>>And this is in an age when access to technology is becoming a necessity
>>in order to acquire and keep an increasing number of jobs.
>>I truly think we are going to have to revisit use of human readers,
>>much as people under forty do not want to contemplate this.
>>Mike Freeman
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Lee
>>Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 1:50 PM
>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Innovation, Usability, Accessibility, standards,
>>and legal requirements.
>>Laws reflect what some people think should be done at the moment they
>>are made. As the thoughts change, so the laws, eventually. It was the
>>same in the days of Esther. :-) They can help or hinder, and I see the
>>point of democracy to be minimizing the latter, with the side effect of
>>also minimizing the former.
>>As Steve effectively noted though, laws lag behind thought. Thought in
>>turn lags behind the environment that forms it; and in the technical
>>arena, changes in that environment only accelerate as time passes. I
>>see all this is another defense of Steve's view that laws are
>>insufficient, and more so as time goes on. We can't stop fighting for
>>better laws, but we must realize that's not all we have to do.
>>On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 02:24:48PM -0600, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>John,
>>You may have a point regarding being negative, but I think you are
>>interpreting as negative the feeling that some of us have that
>>legislation and enforcement is not sufficient by itself. I'm not
>>opposed to trying to pass laws, but I think that we have to try to do
>>more than that, so my comments should not be taken as opposing legislation.
>>Further, the NFB has tried to get some pretty broad technology laws
>>past and our best success have been when we have focused our efforts on
>>a segment of the population which is why we have been working
>>particularly hard on educational software. At the very least, having
>>legislation in place gives us a way to bring the blatent violaters of
>>accessibility guidelines in line and legislation can provide a vehicle to
>educate others about accessibility.
>>I am not as troubled as Mike by the fact that there is already
>>legislation in place that in the purest sense can't be inforced very
>>well. I think, however, there is still room for me to feel somewhat
>>negative and feel, at the very least, that legislation is not enough.
>>Am I better off than I was twenty years ago? It kind of sounds like a
>>presidential campaign slogan, doesn't it.
>>I am not so certain that I am if you look at technology very broadly.
>>Let's be clear, though. If the question was changed to ask whether I
>>am better off because of the efforts we have made, legislation and
>>other efforts, I would definitely say "yes." I think, though, that a
>>lot of our successes have been to simply keep up, very necessary
>>successes to say the least, and some successes such as iPhones and
>>Apple TV's and the potential new Comcast cable boxes go somewhat
>>beyondkeeping up. On the computer, some of what I have learned to do
>>to edit sound is beyond what I would have dreamed of 20 years ago. The
>>fact that we are starting to be able to interact with touch screens is
>>a success as well, but while we should give apple a good deal of
>>credit, I would be surprised if they didn't look at the work done by
>>the TRACE Center. There are other advancements, too, and it is right
>>for us to not allow ourselves to forget those. Twenty years ago we
>>didn't know if we were going to be able to use Windows, but in time we
>>did, and the work done to make the MAC accessible back then by Berkeley
>Systems needs also to be remembered.
>>Having said all that, I cannot honestly say that I am as comfortable
>>with Microsoft Word today as I was with WordPerfect under DOS. I am
>>not one who feels the ribbon is all that bad, but things happen
>>sometimes that cause delays in speech and sometimes formatting
>>mysteries that reduce my confidence. At least I can use the same
>>software as my co-workers so there are advantages. I should also add
>>that I think many aspects of using Word are getting better, but this is
>>almost twenty years after the Microsoft Accessibility summit. I really
>>don't feel that email is better than it was ten years ago. It is
>>adequte, but we're seeing more crashing of certain programs and others
>>are updated so often that it seems to be a continuous battle to keep
>>them current with screen readers. It is great that I can buy from
>>Amazon and Target now, and without forcing the issue we probably
>>couldn't use their sites today. However, I was buying CD's online ten
>>and fifteen years ago at least, so at least some of these notable
>>successes were necessary to keep me doing what I was already doing. I
>>would say I could set up and operate pretty much any stereo system and
>>even VCR twenty years ago, although I had to follow steps I wrote down
>>to program them. There are many functions on many stereos I cannot
>>access now at all. . We could run down an entire list of appliances
>>that are not very useable any more. The NFB tried to pass a bill to
>require access to home appliances, but it didn't get anywhere. In time it
>might.
>>So what's my point? It certainly isn't that we should give up or that
>>we not pass legislation. I am also aware of the fact that some of what
>>I've outlined above may be addressed some by legislation that has
>>already passed and that there are efforts already underway to make this
>>better. Still, I think there is room to ask some questions about how
>>sustainable our successes can be and what will happen as more and more
>>products incorporate technology such as touch screens and other user
>>input interfaces. I've also seen some erosion of accessibility within
>companies in the private sector.
>>It is less that anyone is taking away accessibility intentionally, but
>>rather that tools have become more complicated and some of the laws and
>>regulations that apply to government, education, and public access do
>>not apply clearly if at all to internal private employment situations.
>>Please allow me to use an example to illustrate why I think we need
>>more than legislation. We are now seeing that thousands of hotel rooms
>>use digital thermostats that are not very usable by blind people who
>>cannot read the displays. We could probably pass a law that all
>>thermostats in hotels must be accessible, and they may even be covered
>>to some degree. There are talking thermostats that, in many cases,
>>could probably function adequately.At what point would it make sense to
>>provide to each blind person requesting it, an electronic reader that
>>could read the thermostat displays and probably other displays rather
>>than replacing tens of thousands of thermostats?
>>I tried the prototype of an LCD reader some seven years ago or so, so
>>while there is no current device to do that, it doesn't seem
>>impossible. It seems to me that we need to do more work to figure out
>>when we can change how we interact with a device or web page as opposed
>>to requiring that thousands of people make changes for us. Of course,
>>I don't really see us doing away with standards, but I'm afraid that as
>>technology advances, standards as we now know them will either become
>>more and more complex or they won't be that relevent. We need very
>>much to understand better what might be done that could make development of
>accessible software and web pages simpler.
>>Although it is simpler than today's problems, I remember how we used to
>>consider frames not to be accessible and we even forced web sites to
>>remove them. Then suddenly frames were all right, even useful, and all
>>the work to prevent their use was suddenly largely wasted. While we
>>create standards, we need to have a better sense of where we are going
>>with our accessibility tools.
>>I don't claim that what I have written here reflects the views of
>>everyone who might be skeptical of legislation, but I think to one
>>degree or another it does reflect our collective experience and some of our
>frustrations.
>>Best regards,
>>Steve Jacobson
>>>On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 01:04:33PM -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>It isn't that difficult to generate a good list of the bugs that need
>>>the most attention. The list doesn't have to be perfect to be useful.
>>>Someone might correctly suggest that bug A is more important than bug
>>>B but if bug B gets fixed instead, it's still a good thing. And you
>>>can generate all the fake bug reports you like, it's not going to make
>>>any difference. We're not *that* stupid.
>>>One thing that strikes me about the conversations on this list ...
>>>There sure is a lot of negativism. Practically every idea is met with
>>>the response, "Oh, that will never work." You'd think us blind people
>>>were still using clay tablets. But innovations occur every day that
>>>move us forward. You might argue it's one step forward and two back.
>>>But if that was the case, I wouldn't be here. none of us would. It
>>>certainly is my impression that things have gotten considerably better
>>>over the past 20 years, not worse. And there is a lot of reason for
>>>hope that the future will be better still.
>>>I think it hurts our cause for so many people to focus so much on the
>>>failures especially when there are so many successes to look at.
>>>Focusing on the failures makes us afraid to try.
>>>On 03/05/14 12:21, Doug Lee wrote:
>>>>Whatever else may be said, I confess there's a certain amusing appeal
>>>>to the concept of a bounty-hunter mentality to open-source bug fixing.
>>>>I can see now, bug reports being submitted by someone nicknamed Boba
>>>>Fett... or would it morph to Boba Git, because of the popular version
>>>>control system? But surely I digress... :-)
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 12:04:02PM -0600, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>At www.iavit.org, we have been contemplating putting a "bounty" on
>>>>certain bugs in orca and nvda. We don't have any money but the idea
>>>>is that you get $50 or $100 for contributing code that fixes a
>>>>particular bug.
>>>--
>>>Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
>>>SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>>"While they were saying among themselves it cannot be done, it was
>>>done." --Helen Keller
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>>--
>>Doug Lee dgl at dlee.org http://www.dlee.org
>>SSB BART Group doug.lee at ssbbartgroup.com
>>http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>"A mailing list is a crude but effective cross between a chain letter
>>and a shouting match." -Andrew Kantor
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