[nfbcs] NVDA product question

Fri Nov 14 04:41:11 UTC 2014

Hi Mike.

What about, as George mentioned, Wikipedia's funding model?  I think
the NVAccess funding model more closely matches that of Wikipedia's
than it does the Lion's or Mother Theresa's.  In the latter instances,
you have a person or group doing something that the served group can't
do for themselves.  Whereas in the former instance, you have an
organization which is, to a degree, run by its users.

Or, to put it differently, what do you believe to be the
characteristics of a nonprofit organization that serves the blind and
is not paternalistic?

Aaron

On 11/13/14, Mike Freeman via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> George:
>
> I consider Mother Theresa and Lions Clubs just as paternalistic as anything
> having to do with the blind. I *do* subscribe to Tim's logic.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of George via nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 6:38 PM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA product question
>
> Yes, Aaron, I totally agree with you.
>
> Tim's thinking is not convincing and it's too much centered on affairs of
> the blind, leaving aside a big reality.
>
> For example,
>> Do we
>> welcome it simply because the recipients are people with a disability?
>
> Not at all. These philanthropic efforts have been made for many centuries
> in
>
> other areas, too. Just think of Lion's Club, Mother Theresa, etc. History
> shows us many philanthropic actions made by kings and rich people, in art,
> for example, a rich madam supported Beethoven and now we have his music.
> So there's nothing wrong with the fund model they chose for NVDA and, in
> fact, I think it's the most appropriate one for such an enterprise.
> It's a growing trend nowadays, when many people try to help each other. We
> can't deny all this efforts without disregarding today's reality. Like
> wikipedia, there are many projects and they are very useful, not only to
> the
>
> blind, and they are based on donations. Saying that all these projects have
>
> a weaker base is absolutely wrong, I think. Companies also go out of
> business.
> Being blind doesn't require to stick to a business model.
>
> George
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Cannon via nfbcs" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> To: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>; "NFB in Computer Science Mailing
>
> List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA product question
>
>
>>I think the reason we haven't seen more arguments with Tim's article
>> is that, frankly, his main points are hard to track.  I can't complain
>> too much though, as I suspect that he writes much more clearly than I
>> do. :)
>>
>> As for what he says about NVDA:
>> "The work that the developers of NVDA have done is exceptional. On a
>> small budget they have developed a really good product and have
>> provided a free screen reader to many thousands of people around the
>> world who couldn't previously afford one, especially in developing
>> countries. Their technical skills and dedication are to be applauded;
>> however, I have a problem with the funding model they have chosen.
>> Philanthropic funding is at best a fragile beast, and it often doesn't
>> extend to covering services like training and support, which can be
>> the most important components of accessibility (especially in
>> education). The bigger issue of equity and why we accept such a
>> fundamental right as access to a computer to be at the whim of
>> philanthropic generosity should be of tremendous concern. Do we
>> welcome it simply because the recipients are people with a disability?
>> Why is this particular group of people not worthy of a business model
>> that guarantees standards of support, service, and viability? The
>> developers of NVDA need investors, not handouts."
>>
>> Perhaps my brain just isn't working right this morning, but I am
>> having a hard time following his objections to NVDA.  If I understand
>> it right, he is saying that the funding model for NVDA is fragile, so
>> we shouldn't trust it.  He also seems to be arguing that it's based on
>> charity, and so beneath us, and besides, it doesn't allow for user
>> support and training.
>>
>> If this is correct, I remain unconvinced.  NVDA support is available
>> from various organizations, for a fee.  Jaws users, on the other hand,
>> end up also paying for support, but they do so up front, whether they
>> need it or not.
>>
>> Training is also available for a fee, but that's certainly not unique
>> to NVDA.  Jaws does come with some training materials, but similar
>> materials are also available for free for NVDA.
>>
>> I agree that NVDA funding is more fragile than we should like, but
>> much of what we the blind rely on is philanthropic in nature.  And, if
>> one source of funding dries up, another one is found.  And anyway, I
>> don't see traditional sources of investment funding being
>> substantially more reliable than philanthropic ones.
>>
>> Investors/donors come, and investors/donors go, and organizations
>> either find new ones, figure out a way to due without, or fail.  So
>> far, NVAccess seems to have been able to find new ones when needed.
>>
>> Consider what would happen if FS and NVAccess went under, and all the
>> developers moved on to bigger and better things (or at least things
>> that would provide them with a paycheck).  Jaws would be gone.  You're
>> already installed copies would probably work, but there would be no
>> way to install the full version on new machines.
>>
>> NVDA, on the other hand, would still be available.  Not only would it
>> still be available to install, but it would be available to improve,
>> fix, and whatever else someone wanted to do with it, within the bounds
>> of the GPL license.  It's even possible that a new group of developers
>> would come along and keep the project going.
>>
>> In short, Jaws belongs to FS.  NVDA belongs, in a very literal sense,
>> to everyone.  I'd much rather see money invested into something I own
>> than into something I don't.
>>
>> That's all for now.
>>
>> Aaron
>>
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