[nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
Jim Barbour
jbar at barcore.com
Mon Jan 18 18:14:15 UTC 2016
Let's try not to introduce a bunch of FUD into this conversation.
I'm not sure which companies don't do this, but if they're for profit
companies with IP to product, they're likely doing something about
security.
I'm not surprised that a UNIX based, GUI friendly machine like a Mac is prefered by IT professionals to do their work, including security work. That's very different than what computer those professionals would prefer to give their customers/users to help protect their company against security issues.
Jim
On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 12:54:17PM -0500, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
> Many of even the large companies especially in the utilities industry have
> not and do not engage in rigorous management let alone competent management
> of information technology. Aside from that results of a poll of security
> professionals done I think in 2013 were that the most preferred computer for
> doing security work came from Apple.
>
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016, Jim Barbour via nfbcs wrote:
>
> >Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:16:31
> >From: Jim Barbour via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >To: Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >Cc: Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com>, 'Steve Jacobson' <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> >Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
> >
> >One big reason that IT organizations for large companies prefer Windows over the Mac is the amount of policy control they can have over their Windows machines.
> >
> >Once windows machines participate in their IT eco-system (attach to their AD domain, consume mail from their exchange servers, etc.) the more policy objects are installed on the computer. This means that your computer can be scanned for mail-ware, you can be forbidden from directly opening, receiving or sending certain types of email attachments, have a list of web sites that you either must visit (white listed) or cannot visit (black listed), and many other things.
> >
> >While much of this is possible on the Mac, it is much harder to enforce on the Mac.
> >
> >When people say that Windows machines tend to get more security problems than Macs do, they're generally talking about unmanaged or poorly managed machines like what most of us run at home, not rigorously managed machines like most large companies hand out to their employees.
> >
> >Having said all that, most of my IT colleagues will bring in their own Apple, or sometimes Linux, machines and make them work within the enterprise anyway, so these windows policy solutions aren't perfect. however, most non-techies won't know how to do this, so the tyranny of the default often still wins.
> >
> >Take Care,
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 07:53:45AM -0800, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
> >> Well, apparently, at the current time, that has not happened, and,
> >>although I agree that it is inevitable, companies seem to be relying on it
> >>currently. Also, from what I have heard, Windows tends to get security
> >>problems more often than Macs.
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Christopher Chaltain [mailto:chaltain at gmail.com]
> >>Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 5:05 AM
> >>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >>Cc: Nicole Torcolini; 'Steve Jacobson'
> >>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
> >>
> >>I'm sure that's true, and obviously companies and individuals can choose to
> >>run their business with whatever operating system they want to, but the Mac
> >>also has viruses and security vulnerabilities, and these will only be
> >>exploited more as Apple gains more market share and becomes more appealing
> >>to hackers.
> >>
> >>On 17/01/16 23:36, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>Agreed. However, there are some companies who will use Macs whenever
> >>>possible because they do not trust the security on Windows.
> >>>
> >>>Nicole
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> >>>Jacobson via nfbcs
> >>>Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 7:13 PM
> >>>To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >>>Cc: Steve Jacobson
> >>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
> >>>
> >>>Peter and others,
> >>>
> >>>One problem not really addressed is that Windows still has a solid
> >>>hold within corporations. I'm not saying that Apple doesn't exist,
> >>>nor am I saying that it might not increase its share, but right now,
> >>>Windows is pretty strong there. Some tasks that are done with Windows
> >>>on the job can be done on Apple products, but to try to do everything
> >>>with an Apple computer that is being done by others with a Windows
> >>>computer is an uphill battle within the workplace. For now, we can't
> >>>wish Windows away any more than Microsoft can wish Apple away. We
> >>>have to take both platforms seriously where accessibility is concerned.
> >>>
> >>>Best regards,
> >>>
> >>>Steve Jacobson
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> >>>Donahue via nfbcs
> >>>Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 8:09 PM
> >>>To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List' <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>>Cc: Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> >>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
> >>>
> >>>Good evening everyone,
> >>>
> >>> For some the extra money is worth it to have your device come with
> >>an
> >>>accessibility solution already built in and ready to go and not have
> >>>to hassle with the issues related to using Windows and associated
> >>>screen access systems. It's a case of convenience over cost. If one
> >>>can perform all computing tasks they did in Windows in the Apple
> >>>environment convenience will win out any day.
> >>>
> >>>Peter Donahue
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher
> >>>Chaltain via nfbcs
> >>>Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 5:15 PM
> >>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >>>Cc: Christopher Chaltain
> >>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
> >>>
> >>>True, but with PC's you get more options when it comes to price and
> >>>with NVDA, JAWS home license, Window-Eyes and Linux, you can get a
> >>>cheaper system, including screen reader, then you can with Apple.
> >>>
> >>>On 17/01/16 14:27, John G. Heim via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>>I think one of the mainreasons people like voiceover so much is that
> >>>>it is included on every Apple device for no additional cost. That is
> >>>>non-trivial.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On 01/17/2016 01:55 PM, Nicole Torcolini via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>>> Here is my opinion. I will use a Mac when hell
> >>>>>freezes over.
> >>>>>What the devil is so much better about VoiceOver?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Stop making empty claims without supporting them.
> >>>>>Stop cherry picking the information that you want and ignoring the
> >>>>>rest. As this article
> >>>>><http://qz.com/588126/theres-a-good-reason-americans-are-horrible-at
> >>>>>-
> >>>>>science
> >>>>>
> >>>>>/> says, stops using facts "much like a drunk uses a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>lamppost: for support, not illumination."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> VoiceOver has just as many, if not more, problems
> >>>>>as other screen readers. I know because many of my coworkers use
> >>>>>Macs, and Apple is introducing more bugs than they are fixing when
> >>>>>it comes to internet use.
> >>>>>And they have no pressure to fix the bugs because, on the Mac, there
> >>>>>is no competition.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Microsoft has a screen reader; it is called Narrator.
> >>>>>I have
> >>>>>heard that it is better on newer versions of Windows, which I have
> >>>>>not tried, but, from my experience, it does not work worth a damn. I
> >>>>>know that Microsoft has some kind of deal with Windows Eyes, but it
> >>>>>does not work well with complex websites. Also, if Microsoft will
> >>>>>not even consider accessibility when making their products, and do
> >>>>>stuff like put the ribbon everywhere, why would they be interested
> >>>>>in maintaining a screen reader?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Nicole
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> >>>>>Donahue via nfbcs
> >>>>>Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:25 PM
> >>>>>To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> >>>>>Cc: Peter Donahue
> >>>>>Subject: [nfbcs] The Mac Beckens
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Good morning everyone,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If Microsoft would do with its Windows screen
> >>>>>reader what Apple has done with the MAC and its iDevices perhaps we
> >>>>>would have fewer issues with compatibility and accessibility tools
> >>>>>could be kept up-to-date more easily and with little to no cost.
> >>>>>Perhaps some MAC and iOS users could weigh in on this issue with the
> >>>>>petition and share their experiences with accessing it under iOS and
> >>>>>oSX. Perhaps in another few years we'll be 100% Mac and iOS users in
> >>>>>this house-hold.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Peter Donahue
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>
> >>>>>From: nfbcs [ <mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain
> >>>>>via nfbcs
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:35 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Cc: Christopher Chaltain
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] NVDA and JAWS [was "Re: Petition Asking
> >>>>>President Obama To Direct the JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA
> >>>>>Internet Regulations"]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The idea that anything that's three years old is antiquated is
> >>incorrect.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I'm sure quite a few people on this list are using Office2013 or
> >>>>>Office 2010 if not something older. Microsoft and many companies
> >>>>>support products for more than three years. People used Windows XP
> >>>>>for ten years and beyond.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I never saw anything on this list that the problem accessing this
> >>>>>petition has to do with the version of JAWS being used. I get the
> >>>>>impression that people using more recent versions of JAWS are
> >>>>>experiencing the same problem.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>In other words, I didn't see anything in this thread that JAWS 13
> >>>>>can't do the job and can't be used affectively for all sorts of
> >>>>>tasks. It seems to me that people are just jumping to conclusions
> >>>>>and using this message to make a point rather than help a JAWS user
> >>>>>solve their problem and submit this petition.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Obviously, I can't tell people what words they can and cannot use,
> >>>>>but I think information can be provided in a more sympathetic tone.
> >>>>>I'm sure most people running JAWS 13 would like to upgrade, and they
> >>>>>don't need to have their faces rubbed in the fact that they can't
> >>>>>afford an update.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>No one may have intended to make anyone feel bad but communication
> >>>>>is a two way street, and people need to take into account not just
> >>>>>how their words are intended but how they may be received.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On 16/01/16 22:08, Buddy Brannan via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>The unfortunate reality is that you simply *can't* do everything
> >>>>>>with one
> >>>>>screen reader. There's certainly no reason not to have more than one
> >>>>>if you can afford one, because NVDA is free software. Both
> >>>>>definitions of free.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Window-Eyes is even no cost if you have Office 2010 or newer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>The other unfortunate reality is that Jaws 13.0 *is* antiquated,
> >>>>>>and that
> >>>>>isn't meant to make anyone feel bad, it's just a fact. You really
> >>>>>can't use a three year old version of anything and expect it to
> >>>>>behave correctly with something that's newer. It just isn't
> >>>>>realistic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>--
> >>>>>>Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> >>>>>>Phone: 814-860-3194
> >>>>>>Mobile: 814-431-0962
> >>>>>>Email: <mailto:buddy at brannan.name> buddy at brannan.name
> >>>>>>>On Jan 16, 2016, at 10:55 PM, Christopher Chaltain via nfbcs
> >>>>>< <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>I agree that it's good to have NVDA in your tool box regardless of
> >>>>>>>what
> >>>>>version of JAWS you're running, but it isn't always possible for
> >>>>>people to keep up with a product like JAWS, and using two different
> >>>>>screen readers can be frustrating. I think it's OK to suggest JAWS,
> >>>>>but there's no need to make anyone feel bad by calling the tools
> >>>>>they can afford to use "antiquated".
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>On 16/01/16 15:18, Jude DaShiell via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>>>>>>This is why when jaws users know they're not going to be able to
> >>>>>>>>update jaws it's a good idea to have installed nvda to do the
> >>>>>>>>jobs their antiquated version of jaws can no longer do.
> >>>>>>>>On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mike Freeman via nfbcs wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:03:52
> >>>>>>>>>From: Mike Freeman via nfbcs < <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <
> >>>>>>>>><mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Cc: Mike Freeman < <mailto:k7uij at panix.com> k7uij at panix.com>
> >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
> >>>>>>>>> JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations excess
> >>>>>>>>>ability does not imply backward compatibility. Your version of
> >>>>>>>>>jaws is several versions out of date. I suspect it may be part
> >>>>>>>>>of the problem.
> >>>>>>>>>Mike Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>On Jan 16, 2016, at 12:52, Jennifer Aberdeen via nfbcs <
> >>>>>>>>>><mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Why is this patition not accessible? When I click on the submit
> >>>>>>>>>>button, in different ways; enter, space, left mouse button on
> >>>>>>>>>>the num pad, nothing happens.
> >>>>>>>>>>I'm using jaws 13 with win 7 and IE 11.
> >>>>>>>>>>Jen
> >>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Curtis Chong via nfbcs
> >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 1:38 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>To: <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>>>Cc: Curtis Chong
> >>>>>>>>>>Subject: [nfbcs] Petition Asking President Obama To Direct the
> >>>>>>>>>>JusticeDepartment to Issue ADA Internet Regulations
> >>>>>>>>>>Greetings:
> >>>>>>>>>>On Tuesday, January 12, 2016, the National Federation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>Blind launched a petition (the link to which is provided below)
> >>>>>>>>>>calling on the Obama administration promptly to release the
> >>>>>>>>>>long-awaited ADA internet regulations. On the 20th anniversary
> >>>>>>>>>>of the Americans with Disabilities Act (way back in 2010),
> >>>>>>>>>>President Obama said that he would issue regulations
> >>>>>>>>>>implementing the requirement for accessible websites, noting
> >>>>>>>>>>that they would be "the most important updates to the ADA since
> >>>>>>>>>>its
> >>>original enactment."
> >>>>>>>>>>President Obama now says that the regulations will not be
> >>>>>>>>>>released until 2018, after he leaves office.
> >>>>>>>>>>For those of who are blind, inaccessible websites can make it
> >>>>>>>>>>impossible to apply for jobs, participate in online courses, or
> >>>>>>>>>>conduct vital personal financial business. Website developers
> >>>>>>>>>>need guidance on how to comply with the law. Failing to provide
> >>>>>>>>>>that guidance is irresponsible and inconsistent with President
> >>>>>>>>>>Obama's expressed commitment to civil rights.
> >>>>>>>>>>If you are interested in signing the petition (and I hope you
> >>>>>>>>>>are), point your browser to this link.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>><https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department
> >>>>>>>>>>-
> >>>>>>>>>>jus>
> >>>>>https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-jus
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>tice-promp
> >>>>>>>>>>tly-release-ada-internet-regulations
> >>>>>>>>>>As an example of the need for these regulations, some JAWS
> >>>>>>>>>>users running Internet Explorer have reported a problem with the
> >>"sign"
> >>>>>>>>>>button when attempting to add their name. Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>solutions to help mitigate that problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>1. Try routing the JAWS cursor to PC (Insert+Numpad
> >>>>>>>>>>Minus), and
> >>>>>>>>>>pressing the left mouse button (Numpad Slash), and the "sign"
> >>>>>>>>>>button will be selected.
> >>>>>>>>>>2. Alternatively, you can sign the petition using the
> >>>>>Mozilla
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Firefox browser.
> >>>>>>>>>>The petition is reported to be accessible using iOS devices
> >>>>>>>>>>such as the iPad or iPhone.
> >>>>>>>>>>Cordially,
> >>>>>>>>>>Curtis Chong, President
> >>>>>>>>>>National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science
> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>4
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%4
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>0gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>---
> >>>>>>>>>>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
> >>software.
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> >>>>>>>>>>https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>om
> >>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>.com
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>Christopher (CJ)
> >>>>>>>chaltain at Gmail
> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
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> >>>>>>>n
> >>>>>>>.na>
> >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.n
> >>>>>a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>me
> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>>c
> >>>>>o
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>m
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Christopher (CJ)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>chaltain at Gmail
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:nfbcs at nfbnet.org> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org>
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> >>>>>r.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>nfbcs mailing list
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>>m
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Christopher (CJ)
> >>>chaltain at Gmail
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>nfbcs:
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> >>>si.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>m
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>m
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Christopher (CJ)
> >>chaltain at Gmail
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>nfbcs mailing list
> >>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
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